


blue's mcu meta (mostly brucenat)

by blueincandescence



Series: #bluesaid [3]
Category: Marvel Cinematic Universe
Genre: F/M, Gen, Meta
Language: English
Status: In-Progress
Published: 2015-07-22
Updated: 2018-08-18
Packaged: 2018-12-05 11:02:49
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 87
Words: 82,863
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/11576754
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/blueincandescence/pseuds/blueincandescence
Summary: A place to stash all my MCU/brucenat-related meta because sometimes I lose things on tumblr.





	1. brucenat + height differences

[ ](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/image/112669846430)

One more Brutasha thought for the night: 

Looking at the heights in photo, I thought they’d pulled a Tony/Pepper and put Mark Ruffalo on an apple crate. But nope! Ruffalo is 5'8", about what I would have guessed, but ScarJo is only 5'3"! Reminds me of an Ani DiFranco lyric: “I walk in stride with people / Much taller than me / And partly it’s the boots but / Mostly it’s my chi…”

Okay. Cutting myself off. <3 this ship.


	2. Bruce Banner/Natasha Romanoff Shipper Rationale

**Bruce Banner/Natasha Romanoff Shipper Rationale (Part I):**

This little moment in the third trailer always gets me. 

That’s definitely Bruce behind Natasha, the arm hair is a dead giveaway. 

I can’t quite tell if he’s leaning against the back of Natasha’s chair or not; regardless, his body language is so relaxed compared to how we usually see him — hugging himself, standing apart, tense. 

He’s relaxed with Natasha. He’s with his bodyguard and that  _helps_ him. I think he  _needs_  to be with someone who is vigilant and wary of the Other Guy so that he can feel free to take a five minute break from himself, knowing someone capable is on the watch. 

And, because she’s Natasha, she can be on watch 24/7 while also cracking one-liners and enjoying a beer. She’s capable of being a normal person and a super spy all at once. That’s who she is, so it’s not a burden being Bruce’s bodyguard. It’s what she’d be doing anyway, but doing it with his blessing is so much  _nicer_ , so much more the kind of person she’d rather be. 

[ ](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/image/113982537620)

**Bruce Banner/Natasha Romanoff Shipper Rationale (Part II):**

This is another scene from the trailers that speaks volumes through body language.  ****

Steve is off in his own world, probably his own guilt. Thor is tense and flexed, like he’s still itching to fight. He’s got his back turned to everyone, a warrior apart.

Then there’s Bruce and Natasha. Bruce is, of course, the focus of the shot. He’s got post-transformation trauma written all over him. He’s making himself as small as possible. He’s sitting on the cold, hard floor instead of in a seat. Natasha is in the nearest seat to him, a bit behind. Exhaustion is in her slumped posture, but her body is turned slightly toward Bruce. His head is titled slightly her way.

Thor and Natasha frame Bruce. Thor is closed off, Natasha is open. Natasha is giving Bruce the space he needs to collect himself, but she’s literally got his back.

**Bruce Ba** **nner/Natasha Romanoff ’Shipper Rationale (Part III):**

One of the very best things that  _The Avengers Prelude: Fury’s Big Week_  does is insert Black Widow into the events of  _The Incredible Hulk_. 

From the [Marvel Cinematic Universe Wiki](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FCulver_University&t=ODQ1YmEzZTgzYzUxNmUwMTU0ZGM2MmY1ZWRhMzg3NTY4MmU3MDhhNixCNHcxWnpmdg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F114021850120%2Fbruce-bannernatasha-romanoff-shipper-rationale&m=1):

> _Betty tries to convince her father to leave Banner alone, but as they are speaking, Banner is trapped inside a elevated hallway, where the soldiers try to render him unconscious using gas grenades. Instead, the stress of the situation triggers his transformation into[Hulk](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FHulk&t=M2Y5ZDIzMWEzZTkwNDA2OTgxYzQ2ZTM1YTY4NTUyYWM2OWIxNjYxNCxCNHcxWnpmdg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F114021850120%2Fbruce-bannernatasha-romanoff-shipper-rationale&m=1)._

> _At[Nick Fury](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FNick_Fury&t=NTRkYWY0NzE2M2MzMmQ2M2Y4Njg4MmUzOTc3YmQzYjZkMmQ3M2NiYSxCNHcxWnpmdg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F114021850120%2Fbruce-bannernatasha-romanoff-shipper-rationale&m=1)’s request, [S.H.I.E.L.D.](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FS.H.I.E.L.D.&t=MmM2Zjk1ZDRmODY5OTA0MjI2NDVjNWFiOWU0ZmMyYjhmZTNlNjk4NyxCNHcxWnpmdg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F114021850120%2Fbruce-bannernatasha-romanoff-shipper-rationale&m=1) agent [Natasha Romanoff](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FNatasha_Romanoff&t=MTk3ZDQyNGI2ZGRhYzQzZDQ4ZmMwZWUxN2RmNzQ5ZjRlZWQ2ODE5NixCNHcxWnpmdg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F114021850120%2Fbruce-bannernatasha-romanoff-shipper-rationale&m=1) is undercover at Culver University trying to keep an eye on Banner, and she arrives in time to witness Banner’s transformation._

So, after the events of Iron Man 2, Natasha goes straight to Culver to spy on Bruce. She makes it there around the same time that Bruce is saying goodbye to the woman he loves, Betty Ross, to return to his life searching for a cure on the run. But, instead of that tender scene, Natasha’s first introduction to Bruce is via the Other Guy — which is the catalyst for the extreme fear that Natasha emotes in  _The Avengers_. 

There are a lot of great character analyses out there about why Natasha is so afraid of the Hulk ([this one comes to mind](http://you-wanna-know-my-secret.tumblr.com/post/113995311761/dashingforceofpalsy)), but I think it’s worth noting that, undoubtedly, at this point, the Hulk is the strangest thing that Natasha has ever seen. She’s seen horrors, she’s seen monsters — she’s  _made_ horrors, she’s  _been_  a monster — but the Hulk represents a monster that can’t be masked or hidden or reformed or negotiated or neutralized. 

 


	3. Anybody else torturing themselves with spoilers of Age of Ultron?

Anybody else torturing themselves with spoilers of Age of Ultron? 

My Bruce/Natasha thoughts on the latest spoiler-y rumors from io9 are below the cut…

> Responding to a round of rumors posted by Bleeding Cool, Badass Digest had this to offer about the makeup of the Avengers team at the end of the movie:  
>  _I am familiar with a couple of drafts of the script (one pre-ScarJo pregnancy, one post) and I can tell you that in both drafts the movie ends with the original Avengers splitting up and going their separate ways. Captain America and Nick Fury put together a new team, missing most of the big solo guns. Iron Man is done, **Hulk is missing** and Thor has returned to Asgard to deal with the events leading up to Thor: Ragnarok. Those last two are vital — my sources tell me they’re  **sitting out Infinity War Part I as well** , which means Marvel wants to take them off the shared universe board until they (along with Captain America) return in Part II. Bringing Thor right back for Civil War makes no sense.  **Bringing Hulk back makes even less sense, as his disappearance is a pretty big deal at the end of Ultron, and undoing that immediately seems silly.**_

Ugh. Damn it. I really hate that Bruce Banner/Hulk will be off the board for all of Phase 3 because he was already a nonentity in all of Phase 2. More Bruce!  
I mean, I see why they’re doing it. Hulk is the strongest there is, so you want to save him as a Big Gun (along with Captain Marvel, can’t freaking wait for my girl). BUT STILL.

Also, this is such a typically Joss Whedon thing to do. He loves nothing more than to bring a ’ship right up to the moment they’re about to consummate — and then DESTROY it (see: Wesley/Fed) through tragedy. 

All I can ask is that we don’t get confirmation that Hulkwidow is brand new, so at least we can have Phase 2 for behind the scenes canon-compliant fic and vids!


	4. honoring the relationship in the future

[maidenpools](http://maidenpools.tumblr.com/post/114623514046):

 

 

> [blueincandescence](http://tmblr.co/mtej68fP_6aQzSiaIT2Hs1A) mentioned some rumors/potential spoilers and their implications for this ship and I wanted to talk about that with you all a bit, as I’ve been thinking about them too. spoilers under the cut.
> 
> [Read More](http://maidenpools.tumblr.com/post/114623514046/blueincandescence-mentioned-some-rumors-potential)

Thoughts below the cut…

I’m with you one hundred percent on honoring the relationship in the future. If it turns out that Hulkwidow is an  _Avengers_ -only plot thread — meaning, in C _A: CW_  Natasha is in no way impacted by Bruce’s disappearance, I would certainly be disappointed not only as a ’shipper but also as a continuity/canon freak. 

I also do not want a  _Planet Hulk_ -storyline, but more because, to be honest, I don’t find Hulk all that interesting without Bruce. If the Hulk takes over and has an affair with an alien queen, I wouldn’t consider that “cheating” because there is enough of a divide in my mind between the two characters. And, if they do go that way — which is a big if because the producers are constantly saying “No Planet Hulk” — I imagine it’ll just be an Easter egg or cameo in  _Guardians 2_  or  _Captain Marvel_ , so meh.

But, overall, yes, I’m with you. My ’shipper heart wants three things from  _Age of Ultron_ :

1\. Enough wiggle-room that their romance (not just friendship) could have started blossoming pre- _CA:TWS_

2\. Substantial material to work with — scenes to unpack, character angst and squee, beautiful images, intriguing noodle incidents, etc. (We got that in  _Avengers_  and they weren’t even a thing then, so I can’t imagine  _AOU_  won’t deliver.)

3\. And, exactly what you said — evidence that whatever happens to Bruce at the end of  _AOU_  will be impactful for both characters in the long term.

Thanks for the discussion!

* * *

 

**Anon: You are seriously one of my favorite people right now! Your "Mary Sue" post made my day! Everyone seems so angry... I'm glad I'm not the only one who liked it. Either way.You rock! And I'm glad I started following you! I wish I'd found your blog sooner :) Also I'm like 79% sure I put this in the wrong box so I'll ask a question so you think I know what I'm doing. Ahem... Do you think they will continue to delve into her past and character in Civil War? Or will they avoid it after the backlash?**

That’s too nice, Anon, thank you! 

To answer your very interesting question, I’d say that, actually, it would make complete narrative sense to delve more into Natasha’s past in Civil War. Of course, the movie is jam-packed with characters (love it and hate it), so her arc will have to be abridged, but I’m almost positive the narrative will pick up the data dump thread. 

The Stark fortune and imminent threat of HYDRA insulated the Avengers from the Civil War fall out, but now that the Avengers are arguably responsible for destroying two world cities, there’s no way politics aren’t going to catch up with them. I can see Natasha’s name being smeared in the news as a minimum, maybe even a subplot where various figures in her past are out to get her. 

As for the backlash, I definitely think they’ll keep away from the sterility aspect — as they should. It’s a piece of her character backstory that has a place in Age of Ultron because it, one, thematically matches the sci-fi evolution/Gothic creation undertones and, two, in story, the inability to have children is directly brought up by another character as a deal breaker to their relationship. Civil War is, I imagine, going to be very politically themed (as both Caps have been), so it doesn’t have a narrative place.

The worst case scenario that comes of this is if Marvel execs use the backlash as an excuse to not allow its writers to give delve into anything potentially controversial in her comics backstory and, hereafter, we get ‘quippy former assassin with a heart of gold and an unwavering loyalty to the mission’ version of the character (that is to say, watered down). 

But I’m still hopeful.

 

 

anonymous said:  
I really hope you don't mind me asking, but I've been thinking about this and I wanted to know what other people would think but what do you think the Russos are going to do with Brucenat? Do you think they'll continue it or give them an ending? I mean, I really hope this backlash doesn't influence them to end it.

Hmmmm, this is the eternal question, isn’t Anon? It’s really hard to stay!

_The Winter Solider_  had no problem  _not_  mentioning some really key details (like, say, Clint Barton, AGENT OF SHIELD), so I’m leaning toward them Not Touching It Much (If At All). 

This is all we know about whether or not Bruce will be a part of  _Civil War:_  

> So far there’s been no confirmation on whether [Mark Ruffalo will reprise his role as Bruce Banner / The Hulk](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickeringmyth.com%2F2015%2F04%2Fmark-ruffalo-says-marvel-doesnt-have-the-rights-for-a-solo-hulk-movie-unsure-if-hell-appear-in-captain-america-civil-war.html&t=N2RkMmVmMDEzM2EyZTI2MTg0YjdiYTAwZWY2MDVmY2IxYzk4NTEwMSxRcU8zTTBjYQ%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F122863052090%2Fi-really-hope-you-dont-mind-me-asking-but-ive&m=1) in Civil War, and Feige was giving very little away, teasing that “[Hulk is] not a primary part of Civil War. He may not be a part at all.”
> 
> [— Kevin Feige via flickeringmyth.com](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickeringmyth.com%2F2015%2F06%2Fkevin-feige-promises-civil-war-will-be-a-captain-america-movie-teases-red-hulk-appearance.html&t=MjRlOGJkOWY5ODUwMjc5YThiMTc0ZjczNWIxYmU0Njg3N2IzNWQwZixRcU8zTTBjYQ%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F122863052090%2Fi-really-hope-you-dont-mind-me-asking-but-ive&m=1)

So, maybe we get a cameo and maybe that cameo is Bruce Banner and  _not_  the Hulk, which — I AM VERY OKAY WITH THAT GIVE ME FLUFFALO OR GIVE ME DEATH. Ahem.

If we  _do_ get a cameo, will it have brucenat resonance? Obviously, I hope so! I don’t necessarily want a reunion. I just want a nod. Like a sexy nod. 

But, you know, it might not have any shipper-ness. It might just be a “here’s Bruce on a beach” or “here’s footage of the Hulk wrecking some shit” or “here’s Bruce with some Dr. Strange-like monks getting his control on” — there are lots of non-brucenat places the narrative can take him (that I can twist to be brucenat because my headcanons are legion). 

And I’d actually be okay with that. Just like I’d be okay with Natasha not mentioning Bruce and playing her missing him close to her chest. 

There’s so much stuff going on in  _Civil War_ , I can’t imagine the Russos are going to take the time to sink the brucenat ship. What would be the point? 

  * One, they don’t need romance. The Russos already proved that Captain America can work without an overt romantic arc (the first Avengers proved that, too, minus the Great Cl*ntasha Presumption of 2012). 
  * Two, without Bruce in a larger role, the emotional resonance won’t be there to justify it as character building.
  * Three, who says they’d even want to? If I were a director, I would roll my eyes at the “backlash” — the critics mostly liked it and the whole feminist angle of the attack got all bent and gross and the rest is just ship wars. I prefer directors and writers who don’t enter into that fray, except as fun jokes with the fans. #TheInternetShouldNotWriteMovieorTVScripts2k15. *hugs all my Wolverine/Rogue fanfic*



Basically, I want confirmation of where Bruce is. I want Natasha to continue her heroic journey. I can work with that. 

Buuuut, if we get a Necklace of Portent or a scene where Steve and Nat get drunk at bar and complain about their tragic love lives MORE’S THE BETTER. :D

Thanks for the question, Anon!


	5. brucenat + smut

[maidenpools](http://maidenpools.tumblr.com/post/115625879426):

 

> this is kind of a bizarre question, but how do y’all feel about brucenat smut? I don’t think I could ever write it bc a) I don’t really have the requisite knowledge to write decent smut in the first place and b) I honestly can’t imagine bruce and natasha having sex bc of the whole issue with bruce’s heart rate getting up too high. honestly one of the interesting things about the relationship to me is the many challenges it poses to the two of them, including the need to refrain from sexual intimacy. I don’t think it would be difficult for them, but I think it’s an interesting subject to write about if you are so inclined - why isn’t it difficult for them? in my opinion it would have a lot to do with the kind of people they are and their lived experiences; I may write about it some day.
> 
> do you all have headcanons about this? I’m curious.

This is an interesting question for this pairing. I definitely think it can be managed and that managing it is an essential character step for Bruce. 

The heart rate scene comes in TIH, which is before Bruce has gotten control and can “handle pointy things,” so it’s possible that he can learn to differentiate/suppress heart rate issues when it comes to sex. There would have to be planning, though, at least in the beginning. Surprise and uncertainty would not go well.

There is a lot of drama to mine there, and it’s a very Joss situation — Angel and Buffy come to mind. In the end, Angel can have sex once he realizes that it isn’t the same as redemptive true love. A lesson Bruce might have to learn is that he can have sex, too, if he isn’t afraid of himself and trusts his partner to take care of herself.

[khaleesinymeria](http://khaleesinymeria.tumblr.com/post/115899740543):

> i don’t really imagine these two to be a sexual relationship, much, i just picture them as being really intimate/close/private with each other but not really sexual. their relationship would be based on loyalty, understanding, friendship, and just getting along well.
> 
> i imagine them to be the type of couple who stays up late at night (those free nights they have, of course) where they talk and talk about their lives, their friends (”Steve looks like a huge nerd with glasses” “I have glasses” “you’re also a nerd :)” “:)” ) the universe, the triviality and absurdity of life, while cuddling over the bed with a soft blanket over them.
> 
> in the free days they would go out, exercise a lot (from jogging to yoga to everything in between), visit “cultural” places (bc yeah  i picture Natasha to have sophisticated tastes and Bruce’s a science nerd so), and then chill back at home (lol they have a flat? by) reading a book/watching something and then commenting on it, or stuck doing trivial house stuff (showering, cleaning the house)…a very calm domestic life. they would also go out at night clubbing or on bars and such but i’m not sure if Bruce is into that much.

I love this vision of domestic bliss! 

What I’d add to the mix, though, is that I feel like any sexual relationship that they might have could be very significant to their character growth. 

Like they’d have to take things slow for Bruce, but they’d both get really  _into_  that and that would lead this very emotionally-seated passion.

I imagine sex to Natasha has mostly been a playful athleticism or a deadly weapon. Letting Bruce take control and explore her would be a strangely powerful turn-on; his hesitancy would be at the same time such bravery. When she felt like it, she could take control back and push his buttons, knowing she was the one thing she’d ever wanted — trusted, implicitly.

For Bruce, he’s had the loving, soft relationship with Betty. With Natasha, once he becomes comfortable and establishes that trust, he could test out that other side of himself — the always angry, testing his limits side (represented by “Stop lying to me!” and then that little boy smirk, “I just wanted to see what you would do.”) that he’s always hidden as shameful. 

That Bruce and Natasha could get to a place where they allowed each other to be unbearably tender  _and_  excitingly passionate would be such a deep arc, IMO. 

I think Brucenat supporters might be half and half on the asexual/sexual reading of the relationship, which I think is great. Goes to show how Brucenat can appeal to all kinds of ’shippers.


	6. brucenat + clint rumors

OH BUT WAIT. If the Clint rumors are true (you know what I’m talking about) then I Natasha’s line in Avengers IS EVEN DEEPER and speaks to why BruceNat isn’t an afterthought. Speculation under the thingy.

When Loki asks, “Is this love, Agent Romanoff?” she replies, “Love is for children. I owe him a debt.” This obviously refers to her badass assassin past and the fact that she never had a childhood and, therefore, doesn’t believe in love as such.

However. We do know she’s a ’shipper (hey Cap/Amy from  _Everwood_ ) and does believe love is for some people — family-types. Good people. Like the man who “made a different call.” Love is for children — Clint’s children, specifically. He’s got a son and a daughter and a wife at home, and Natasha is willing to go through hell to keep that family in tact.

In my headcanon, Natasha is in love with Clint — or, at least, she was when she joined SHIELD. Just as the ice in her heart is melting, a fun, charming, impressive guy like Clint shoots into her life, of course, she’s going to fall in love a little bit. But she takes Clint as her best friend, and maybe even becomes a part of the Barton family (the arrow neckless signifying that?). 

Joss has said that  _AoU_  would clarify the relationship between Clint and Natasha, and the Barton family reveal certainly would do that. It would also clarify that her character arc in  _Avengers_ was about letting go of her fears of not being enough to face down gods and monsters — and, in large part, that arc was completed when she accepted that they “could use a little worse” (also allowing Bruce to close his own arc, being accepted onto the team and letting go so the Hulk could do some good). 

That got a little rambly, but, suffice to say, if Natasha does believe that love is only for good people, then far from ‘ruining her character’ or making her a ‘slut,’ the fact that she’d pursue a relationship with Bruce is a huge step in the direction of self-redemption for her character.


	7. brucenat + "baseless"

I see the word “baseless” getting thrown around a lot in connection to my beleaguered ’ship, and I just have to say that we don’t know what the base is. 

Yes. Agreed. There was no romance between Bruce and Natasha in The Avengers. They had just met — they were sizing each other up. She’s an impressive woman, so Bruce noticed that and he’s a complex guy, so Natasha noticed that, but, yeah, no declarations of love happening there at all. If, at the end of The Avengers, Bruce and Natasha would have jumped into each other’s arms, I’d be right there with you — that would be bad writing.

But that’s not what this is.

Phase 2 is happening largely in real time, so it’s, likely, been three years since the Chitari Invasion and almost a year since SHIELD fell. In that three years — even in that year — all kinds of character interactions could have happened that AOU will only hint at. 

Bruce and Natasha have been living one floor up from each other and working closely together on the Avengers, and, heck, Black Widow has become the Hulk’s bodyguard. 

Things happen offscreen! That happens in great writing all the time. Heck, half the fun of Mad Men is trying to figure out what happened to create the new normal over the hiatus. It pushes us all to be active viewers, and that’s what Joss has said he’s trying to accomplish with Age of Ultron — new relationships have formed between everyone and the surprise and delight of the first part of the film will be to figure out how Thor and Steve became besties, etc.

TL;DR — IT’S BEEN THREE YEARS AND THERE’S A NEW BASE, Y’ALL!


	8. Natasha Romanoff + Pain

I read an anti-Bruce/Natasha rant a second ago (when you tag our ship name, we’re gonna read it), and  **I am just so over this idea that putting Natasha with _anyone_  is about making her an outlet for “man pain.”**

**Bullshit. What about _her_  pain?**

In  _Iron Man 2,_   _The Avengers_ ,  _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_ , and  _Age of Ultron_ ,  ** _men_  are the outlet for  _her_  pain. **As an audience, we see her playing opposite a lot of men, and, each time,  **her character edges do not get blurrier, they get sharper**. You know why? Because she’s fascinating and deep and complex. That’s how Scarlett plays her and that’s how Natasha’s been written, consistently. 

 **Characters are explored through other characters**. Putting her with Bruce is an opportunity to deepen her character, to have the kinds of conversations that are revelatory.

Now, I would  _love_  for Natasha’s character to be explored through her relationships with other women, too, but, infuriatingly, the MCU has too few female characters for that.  **You want to complain about representation in the MCU, preach it. I am right there with you.**

But. Saying that giving Natasha a romance with Bruce will weaken her character before knowing how it’s done is pure ’shipper bitterness.  **As Scarlett said in an interview, Natasha wants Bruce because she finally is in a place to want something for herself.** Bruce’s pain will be there, for sure, because it’s important and interesting to explore his character, too.  **But, equally, the relationship will explore her “woman pain” — all the love and trust she’s been denied and denied herself in and because of her past.**

The catalyst for their relationship is  _Natasha’s choice to want one_. Bruce’s “man pain” is her obstacle to  _both_  their happiness, secondary to her strength.

 **I’d hope that anyone who ’ships her with anyone would be able to agree that Natasha can be in a relationship without having that relationship weaken her character.**  Pepper does not weaken Tony. Thor is not weakened by Jane. Steve sure as hell was not weakened by Peggy. Bruce was not weakened by Betty and I have not heard one freaking person being worried that Natasha will weaken his character.

**Women are not weakened by the presence or absence of a man.**

**TL;DR: Y** **es, female characters are too often overshadowed in fiction by the privileging of male characters, but from everything we’re learning from Joss, Scarlett, and spoilers, that’s not what this is. Natasha has always been defined by her relationship with men in the MCU because that’s who she’s played opposite.**

**Stop pretending you care about Natasha’s character when really you only care about your ’ship. There’s nothing wrong with that. Own it.**


	9. Natasha, as defined through not by men

To continue, I’m invested in her character, so I’m gonna go ahead and discuss all the ways that Natasha’s character has been strengthened through her relationship with men. Feel free to add on/contest!

 ** _Iron Man 2_** , granted, isn’t the best movie, but it does set up Natasha’s character and thematic arc. We know that she’s competent at her job — both in espionage and ass kicking — and we meet her as an agent of SHIELD, which is very defining for where she is as a character.

In the first part of the movie, she’s trying to assess Tony as a person, so she puts on the persona she knows he’ll like — the intriguing, dangerous, accomplished, beautiful woman, open to his seduction. However, as soon as she can drop that particular façade, she moves on to the second part of her mission and cozies up to the real power — Pepper Potts, CEO. They repair their relationship, and I’d like to think that Natasha’s actions to save Tony in the final battle repairs her relationship with Pepper, though not with Tony, who emphatically does not trust her.

That aspect is, of course, the key to her thematic arc. Tony latches onto this idea of her being “fake.” He is morally opposed to her job as a spy (or pretends to be), while she’s using her spy skills to become more moral. She’s visibly angry when he asks, “Is there anything real about you?” Her comeback is sarcastic and she’s clearly riled. Obviously, she’s going to resent him calling her out on that. Plus, as her personality profile makes clear, she resents his unprofessionalism and self-destructive nature. He’s been given an opportunity to make up for his past, and he’s squandering it. That Natasha cannot abide, and she makes it clear when she turns him down for the Avengers Initiative.

 _Iron Man 2_  Natasha is a badass agent of SHIELD, but not the fully formed zen badass we get when Joss Whedon writes her in  _The Avengers_. There’s a comic tie-in that has Natasha going back to Russia and pulling some loose threads — taking on the mantel of the one true Black Widow. So I choose to believe she came to terms with herself during that mission and decided to direct all her energy wiping out the red in her ledger.

 ** _The Avengers_**  is where we get the Natasha we know and worship, thanks to Joss (I can’t believe how often I’m defending him; he’s not the messiah of female representation, nor is he the antichrist. Come on, people.) In Avengers, Natasha’s character is explored through all of the men.

First up, there’s the Russian general. The reversal and ass kicking she lays on him perfectly set up her character strengths. Then there’s the comment about Stark not trusting her (arc word alert) and we get her reaction to “the Big Guy” — trepidation and, later, fear.

This is a key dynamic to establish — the fearless spy is afraid of a rumpled doctor on the run. If Natasha hadn’t been characterized as so strong, the audience wouldn’t understand how scary strong the Hulk is. In another post sometime, I’m going to just analyze the scene in India because it is  _everything_. But suffice to say, her fear of and confrontation with the Hulk sets up Natasha’s character arc in terms of “monsters and magic and nothing [she was] ever trained for.” How can she stand up to “basically gods?” By trusting the team, including the Hulk, which she can and she does.

Then there’s the Clint factor. I disagree totally that the only reason why she joined the Avengers was because of Clint. It’s pretty clear that Fury was grooming Natasha and Clint to be the Avengers’ handlers during battles, just like Coulson was their handler administratively. The fact that the two of them actually become Avengers themselves is a huge testament to their awesomeness.

Nat was upset she was being pulled off a mission, but what stopped her protests and lit a fire under her ass was the news that “Barton’s been compromised.” Clearly, Clint means a lot to her. We find out through her interrogation of Loki that Clint was the one who spared her life and brought her to Fury for judgment. The, “Is this love, Agent Romanoff?” question is Loki presuming love equals weakness when really Clint is her strength. They’re best friends and, as the spoilers indicate, as close as family. This shows that her character, while detached, does have the capacity and desire for love and true friendship.

Her badassary is, again, on display with her reversal of Loki. She lets him poke at her very real wounds and lets him taste blood — her past is shameful and that does affect her, but it also makes her strong and more resolved to be a soldier rather than a spy. Loki, like the audience, expects her to be diminished in his shadow. Natasha throws that expectation in his face and lets him choke on it.

In  _ **Captain America: The Winter Soldier**_ , Natasha’s pain is explored even more. It’s explored, again, through men — Nick Fury and Steve Rogers — but it is her pain. She’s pained by lack of trust.

Her father figure is problematic. SHIELD was supposed to be “going straight” but Fury believes “Natasha is comfortable with everything” and puts her to work in that capacity. Still, this is a man who knows everything horrible thing about her, ordered her death, and then decided to trust her as an agent at her word. She has tears for him when he dies. Maria Hill knows that, even wounded, Natasha would want to see Fury first. In a deleted scene that speaks volumes, she says, “I thought you were dead, Nick.” He replies, “Had to keep the circle small. You would have done the same.” Her response: “I know. That’s the problem.” She longs for real connections. She wants to be inside the circle and she wants to have a circle. 

Natasha pre-HYDRA revelation and post-HYDRA revelation is a different woman. On their way to the base, she shares with Steve that she has no problem “making something up” when she needs a connection with somebody. She agrees it’s “a hard way to live” but justifies it by saying, “It’s a good way not to die, though.” She doesn’t trust. But post-HYDRA revelation, her world is shattered. Her ledger is gushing — old wounds ripped open. She asks Steve if he’d trust her with his life. His, “I would now,” validates her. Natasha will now follow Captain America to the ends of the earth because he, unlike SHIELD, expects the best of her. And that’s what she’s longed to feel. That’s what gives her the strength to air out all her sins and start over. 

And so that’s where we find her in  ** _The Avengers: Age of Ultron_**. She’s doing good with good people. She has a team and a family and a home. She’s relaxed and starting to like herself, and wants Bruce to be relaxed and like himself, too. She’s thinking about a future for herself, and thinking she deserves some happiness. That’s huge. And I can’t wait to see how it plays out. 


	10. Betty Ross: Don't You Forget About Me

[priscillajeanohare](http://tatsuyamashiro.co.vu/) said:

 

Ever since your really great addition to my post about the whole "why does no one care about Betty" anon that asked for my opinion, I've been wanting to talk about Betty in Brucenat fic at some point. I always wanted to incorporate his memories of her into fic, but your analysis really got to the core of how that should be done, and I'd never quite figured out how. So thank you for that! That remains one of my favorite bits of meta about Bruce!

Thank you! I love Betty and what she represents, so that makes me happy! 

Two things I think are really important to getting Bruce right as a character: 

1\. Betty and all the ways she was everything he ever wanted and all the ways he never felt good enough to deserve her (*pets*) (I actually heart that if Mark and Liv were ever in a movie together, she’d be a good two inches taller than him. It adds to the whole ‘this woman is a goddess, I can’t believe she fell for  _me’_ silliness in his mind.)

2\. Bruce’s childhood trauma with his alcoholic scientist father. That comics panel that was going around yesterday describes it beautifully — he’s scarred by his childhood abuse (his father killed his mother, who was only trying to protect him), but strong as hell because of it. It also mentions something I think is key to making sense out of the Hulk — the Hulk was always a part of Bruce, both in terms of his psyche  _and_ his physical makeup, i.e. whatever saved him from dying via gamma exposure. 

I have a million headcanons, but these two things are chapter and verse, IMO.

 

 

As someone who loves Bruce/Natasha AND Betty Ross three points: 

1\. It’s not a zero sum game. I have written meta about her character arc in TIH and how essential she is to Bruce’s journey. I think she’s such a strong and important character, and the fact that she isn’t with Bruce doesn’t change how awesome I think she is. 

2\. As you said, Betty was erased  in  _The Avengers_ , three years before brucenat was thought of. The fact is, the part was recast, TIH didn’t do well at the box office, and it’s ignored far too much.

3\. Natasha is not a Betty substitute. Thinking so insults both characters.

 

 

 

 

 

>  
>
>>  
>>
>>> look, you can make whatever excuses you want for the shitty handling of and writing for the bruce/natasha ‘storyline’ (if it can even really be called that) in aou, you can handwave away all the reasonable problems people have with it as ‘not understanding their characters’ or ‘bruce isn’t clint that’s why people hate it’ or whatever else you may come up with
>>> 
>>> but nothing you say can  _ever_  change the fact that betty ross was  _completely fucking erased from the mcu_  in order to make your ship happen
>>> 
>>> nothing you say can ever change the fact that betty ross  _already had almost that exact storyline with bruce_
>>> 
>>> betty was able to calm him down
>>> 
>>> betty was able to reach the hulk
>>> 
>>> betty was his fucking rock
>>> 
>>> and she was erased without a single goddamn consideration to the fact that  _bruce was in love with her_  and hasn’t so much as thought about her since
>>> 
>>> _even jane got a cursory line of reference in the first avengers movie_
>>> 
>>> i am just so sick of brucenat shippers not giving a shit about the woman who was erased to make their ship happen while going on about how ‘feminist’ the storyline really was
>> 
>> As someone who loves Bruce/Natasha AND Betty Ross three points: 
>> 
>> 1\. It’s not a zero sum game. I have written meta about her character arc in TIH and how essential she is to Bruce’s journey. I think she’s such a strong and important character, and the fact that she isn’t with Bruce doesn’t change how awesome I think she is. 
>> 
>> 2\. As you said, Betty was erased  in  _The Avengers_ , three years before brucenat was thought of. The fact is, the part was recast, TIH didn’t do well at the box office, and it’s ignored far too much.
>> 
>> 3\. Natasha is not a Betty substitute. Thinking so insults both characters.
> 
> 1\. That’s great for you. Doesn’t change the fact that most brucenat shippers ignore her just as solidly as the avengers movies did. the fact that she isn’t with bruce has nothing to do with it–the fact that she  _was entirely erased_  without even the smallest mention (even Jane had a reference in  _The Avengers_ ) is exactly what pisses me off the most
> 
> 2\. But I thought most brutasha shippers were adamant that your ship  _didn’t_  just come out of nowhere and was actually (allegedly) hinted at/built up towards starting with  _The Avengers_? Bruce was recast twice and still managed to make it into the starting Avengers lineup, that’s no excuse.
> 
> 3\. Natasha’s ‘storyline’ with Bruce/the Hulk throughout AoU is almost a direct replica of Betty’s relationship with Bruce/the Hulk in the Norton film. That’s not the same as saying Nat replaced Betty in the movie or that they are the same character in any way. But Nat’s ‘relationship’ with Bruce was in no way original.

Hi! I actually enjoy a good debate, so I want to respond. I think the disconnect is between what’s logical in-universe and what’s happening behind the scenes.

1.  _Behind the Scenes:_  Yeah, it’s shitty that she wasn’t referenced. No arguments there. I’m crossing my fingers that she gets referenced by General Ross in CA:CW. As for Jane, they could use her image to remind the audience of who she was. That’s not the same for Betty, because Liv Tyler isn’t under a Marvel contract as far as I know.

 _In-Universe:_  Bruce left Betty to protect her from himself and to make sure she was never a target of anyone who wanted the Hulk. If she were brought into the movie, it would kinda negate that sacrifice. SHIELD protected Jane (not Pepper) because Loki knew her. That’s why she merited a reference.

Oh, and as for shippers ignoring her, I haven’t seen that much of that. It’s fair to only make passing references to her. After all, they were together 5 years before the events of TIH and only a few days during. People love and lose all the time. And Betty and Bruce are nothing if not on and off again in the comics.

2.  _Behind the Scenes:_  Joss has stated that he didn’t know he was going to put Bruce and Natasha together when he wrote The Avengers. Mark wasn’t surprised because he saw the potential, but that is not the same thing as arguing that Betty was erased for the sake of brucenat. That’s simply not true. As for Bruce getting a recast — let’s be real. Betty isn’t an Avenger. If she weren’t recast for any kind of TIH2, then, yeah, I would cry foul on that because she was a lead character in TIH.  

 _In-Universe:_  Shippers do see potential for brucenat in The Avengers just based on interactions and chemistry. Key word is potential. In The Avengers, Bruce has entirely given up on personal relationships for himself. That’s alluded to by the cradle rock. He isn’t trying to get back to Betty. He let her go. And, really, at this point I hope she’s getting hers. I take TIH deleted scenes as canon. She basically says she’s going to take some time for herself and then get back with Samson. Betty will always love Bruce, but she doesn’t put her life on hold for him, which is one of the things I love most about her.

3\. I just disagree with this point. 

The Lullaby, no matter how much people like to dismiss it because it’s feminine, is tactical. Bruce and Natasha put that together strategically to bring Bruce back to himself. Now, that clearly developed into something more emotional, but the core idea is tactical. Betty, while the Hulk clearly has a soft spot for her and she’s fearless when it comes to interfacing with him, never made him turn back to Bruce (in the cave, they both just fall asleep). Betty is the Hulk Whisperer, Natasha is the Hulk Tamer. It’s subtle but distinctly different for both characters. Also, the idea that they’d put Betty on retainer to do the Lullaby (if she could) for Bruce is not at all practical. Someone on the team has to be the one to do it. The point of it is not romance, it’s keeping collateral damage down to zero. Natasha, the character with the most experience in psychological manipulation (remember this is a manipulation that Bruce has consented to), is the one put on Hulk Tamer duty. That’s logical. 

As for why Natasha works for Bruce and why their romance is  _not_ a rehash of what Betty and Bruce had, I could write a book. Suffice to say that Betty and Bruce have history but Natasha and Bruce have common ground. Betty represents the nice things that Bruce should have always had but never thought he deserved. No matter what, Betty always sees the good in him, and I love that about their relationship. Natasha represents accepting all of himself, even the parts that he’s uncomfortable with. Natasha knows what it is to have blood on her hands, she knows what it’s like to have never had a childhood. She also knows how to take all of that dark history and still be a damn good person.

But I’m not trying to convince you to ship brucenat or anything. I just wanted to let you know that there’s nothing thoughtless about the way I ship brucenat or that there isn’t a lot of interesting character points to be mined through the pairing.

**And to be clear: Betty wasn’t erased _for_ brucenat. That wasn’t the behind the scenes intention of not referencing her in The Avengers. **

Now, you  _could_  argue that because brucenat happened it’s now less likely that she gets brought back in the fold. Marvel is very transparent about their formula — all of their heroes are paired up eventually. So if Bruce weren’t with Natasha it would be likely that they’d bring back Betty if they wanted to give him a Marvel-standard happy ending. That makes me sad, too. But, man, I would be  _ecstatic_ if Marvel brought her back in to science the hell out of something. 

Here’s hoping she gets referenced in Civil War and beyond.

 

 

** anonymous said: **  
**so since RDJ and Paltrow are basically the same height and Marvel insists on putting RDJ in platforms to make sure it looks like he's an inch or so taller than her anyway (which I still find so absurd??), what do you think they're gonna do with Ruffalo if they do bring Liv Tyler back (unlikely imo since IW is already so overcrowded but**


	11. Natasha “Reduced to a Love Interest”

Okay, I’ve written about this before, but now, having, seen the movie, I can categorically say that I wholeheartedly disagree that Natasha was in ANYway reduced to a love interest.

THE WHOLE THING was fodder to put HER heroic journey into sharp relief. Yes, it was abridged because it’s 2.5 hours for 11 main characters, but the beats were about: 

**(Vague but significant spoilers ahead)**

1) Natasha understanding herself and what she wants, 

2) Going after what she wants with patience and persistence, 

3) Confronting the demons of her past in the context of what she’s been grappling with (having a home, wanting a home), 

4) Bravely sharing her feelings with another person and allowing herself to dream of a future severed from her past, 

5) Ultimately realizing that she was good and useful and NEEDED in order to save the day,

6) ACCEPTING that she might die in battle but being able to enjoy the moment, and

7) Taking heartbreak like a champ and embracing her future as a hero and trainer of heroes. 

Let’s take a moment to appreciate that last one. Someone who was  _scarred_  and mentally  _damaged_  by a program designed to create “heroes” for a fictionalized USSR, is  _choosing_  to become a trainer of heroes. She’s going to be confronted with memories her own training every day. She’s going to swallow those memories and _do better_  training people to be tough and fast and strong but ultimately  _good_. That’s huge. That’s a brilliant arc. 

**Just because she wants to kiss somebody doesn’t mean any of that erases her heroism.**

AND NOTHING ABOUT THIS MOVIE ERASES HER AGENCY.  _She_  calls the shots. You might not like or agree with those calls, but the movie never once indicates they’re not  _her_  calls to make.

Tony leaves the Avengers wanting to start a family. Barton takes some time off to be with his family.  **This movie is _about family. These characters are motivated by family, so the fact that Natasha is, too, is NOT any different than the guys._**

 

 

 

 

anonymous said:  
"I see bitching about how Natasha’s storyline is “reduced to brucenat” (which is NOT the case)" omg! this is so interesting because it's so mistaken. it couldn't be more far away from reality. The good thing of BruceNat is that the characters aren't defined by the relationship, because is them who defined it. It's a little big difference (if this makes sense at all LOL).

I think it totally does make sense, Anon! Their relationship is not there just for the sake of having a relationship in the film (there was no romantic subplot in TA and that worked out fine). Their relationship is there as a litmus test for where these characters are in terms of their arcs. 

Marvel/Disney is very family-friendly. Family is the ultimate good, so stable relationships are the ultimate goal for characters. Argue with that all you want (because you totally can; as a culture we’re over-saturated with this idea of the ‘happy ending’), but it’s the measurement of characters in the MCU (think Tony and Pepper, Scott and his daughter, Steve and the bittersweet feeling of realizing his home is variations on military bases. It’ll be super interesting btw to see if the MCU tries to “fix” Steve going forward or lets him be fulfilled completely by his team as a family substitute.)

The point is, family/romance is where a lot of these characters are going to end up if they’re going to get a “happy ending.” Bruce and Natasha are the two characters who have been isolated from any relationships outside of the Avengers/SHIELD purview. They are also the two characters who have the most blatant redemption arcs of the original six Avengers. It makes sense that they would try to recreate that sense of family/romance with each other. 

The fact that they try shows us that they are becoming more accepting of themselves. The fact that it doesn’t work out right away shows us that they still have some journeying to do before they can earn their happy endings. 

We learn  _so much_  about these characters and  _what they actually want_  through this storyline. Bruce helps Natasha grow because he pushes back against this notion that she’s defined by the red in her ledger and presents a way out (running/starting over). Natasha helps Bruce grow because she pushes back against this notion that he’s defined by the lack of control he has and presents a way out (lullaby/go be a hero). I’m so excited to see where the back half of this arc takes them.


	12. brucenat + Bar Scene

maidenpools wanted to share thoughts about the Bar Scene, so I thought I’d share with the class. Feel free to add on or fight me on this (no, really, I’d love it). Deep spoilers:

Okay, so I’m re-watching right now. In my view, Bruce is playing dumb, dumb, dumb. He  _knows_. Observations:

1) They role play. They’re very comfortable falling into that rhythm, so I bet they play flirt via personas a lot. Imagine the fics.

(Headcanon: Bruce and Nat share a love of movies from the 1940s. Ingrid Bergman is their favorite actress. They both love  _Casablanca_ (Bruce calls Nat ‘kid’ just like Bogart), but Nat’s favorite movie (and one of mine) is Hitchcock’s  _Notorious.)_

2) B: “He has a temper, deep down he’s all fluff.” Watch Bruce’s eyes. He’s trained right on her, very steady. He knows she’s talking about him.

3) N: “The fact is, he’s not like anybody I’ve ever known.” Bruce’s head jerks up. She’s not playing anymore. That’s her real voice and that gets his attention.

4) B: “Sounds amazing.” Bruce has decided to shut this down by playing dumb. Notice the slightly bitter edge to his voice. He disagrees with her read of him because of his self-loathing.

5) N: “And he’s a huge dork.” Bruce’s eyebrows lift and he almost smiles. That he’ll agree on.

6) N: “But chicks dig that.” Reassuring him, slipping back into the light flirtation. She’s calculated her push and knows it’s time to back off and let him think.

7) N: “So what do you think? Should I fight this or run with it?” Nat’s back into her 40s voice, sultry but a old-fashioned. 

8) B: Deer in the headlights. She’s asked him a direct question — she hasn’t done that before. He protectively plays dumbs. “Uhhhh, run with it, right? Er, what — what did he do that was so wrong to you?” He cannot get back into the game. He sputters. Or maybe he’s afraid she  _won’t_  run with it, a little bit. He doesn’t want to stop the flirting, the closeness. Poor baby’s all confuzzled.

9) N: She knows he’s playing dumb, but she has a killer exit line for him — “Not a damn thing, but never say never.” TOO HOT. HOT DAMN. (Now, this is the line that I think gives the best evidence that they haven’t hooked up, but my ’shipper heart wants what it wants.)

11) B: On his face, I can just see the flashing neon sign in his brain going off: “You are in trouble, Bruce. You are in such deep trouble. And you love it and it’s terrifying and  _is she serious_ , no, maybe I was misreading that — ”

12) B: “What? We haven’t — that wasn’t — ” GUILTY CONSCIENCE, THERE, BRUCEY? Yeah, he knows he was being flirted with. He knows what that was. And — I fully understand if no one wants to go this far with me — but they way he says, “We haven’t — ” just makes me think they have. 

(In the past, maybe just once, maybe after a mission off the books when it was just the two of them and it was before  _CA:TWS_  and Nat doing her “just make somethin’ up”/“I can be whoever you want me to be” thing and he fell for it and they’d tacitly agreed not to go there again. 

And/or maybe they’re just taking some comfort from each other when the team isn’t looking and it was their little secret and no one is supposed to know because they’d make it a thing and neither of them were in a place to deal with that. So he waits till almost the end of the party to talk to her so it’s not so obvious. But she’s upping the ante, she’s talking about really liking someone and her heart and being done wrong and, oh god, what’d he do, is she mad, does this thing between him that’s giving him life have to change?

All that’s pure trash, but l love it.)

13) B: “No, Natasha — she likes to flirt.” Bruce loves their play-flirting. It’s low-risk, high-reward. The idea of it being deeper is terrifying to him, because he knows in his self-hating heart that he’d have to give it up. Whatever closeness he’s allowed, he’d have to give it up and he can’t do that so he can’t let himself believe she could think of him as more.  _He_  can think of  _her_ as more, but only quietly to himself. Unrequited love is something he controls.

14) S: “I’ve seen her flirt. Up close. This ain’t that,” Bruce reacts to that, but probably thinks of it in a mission context. He snorts. Maybe he’s thinking about Calcutta and batted eyelashes.

15) “You both deserve a win.” Head ducked. Does he deserve it? The answer’s always no. She does, though. A little voice in the back of his head. She deserves a win, and if he’s what she’d consider a win…

16) “What do you mean up close?”  _Classic_  Joss line. Just the right amount of wounded jealousy. Tony grew up in Cap’s shadow, but Bruce — trying to replicate the formula, trying to make a more resilient soldier, trying it out  _on himself_  — Bruce isn’t in Cap’s shadow, he  _is_  Cap’s shadow. So the Nat/Steve possibility could rile him a little for a lot of reasons. 

(Total headcanon here, but can you imagine Betty Ross, growing up a military brat, her father idolizing the Cap program like he does — I bet she had Steve Rogers posters all over her bedroom walls and I bet she’d say things as jokes like, “I’d never leave you, Bruce…well, except if Captain America came back from the dead,” haha but really.)

17) Cut to the next scene — Bruce and Nat deep in conversation as if the others don’t exist. Bruce drank in the pep talk and he took it well. 

Whew, okay. Lots of observations. This is what happens when I’m too busy to write fic.

* * *

The more times I watch the Bar Scene, the more convinced I am that Bruce and Natasha have something going on on the sly.

This is  _pure brucenat trash_ , so I definitely welcome disagreement, but I can’t not see it now. I fully recognize it probably wasn’t the intent, but there’s wiggle-room here, and I’m gonna take it. 

I analyzed the scene once before here ([x](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117388101180/bar-scene)), so I’ll just do a quick version outlining my trashy justification that there’s something going on there behind the scenes.

(1) As Bruce approaches Natasha, he nods to her significantly, and she gives him a very contained looked. Then he looks kind of to the side, as if making sure no one’s around to overhear. 

(2) Bruce jumps right into their flirting routine, the expression on his face more open than we’ve seen it. It’s something they’ve done before, but maybe only when they were alone, never where any of the other Avengers could overhear.

(3) “You’ve got a lousy taste in men, kid” — this could be one of Bruce Banner’s infamous self-deprecating jabs. He doesn’t seem surprised at all when Natasha starts describing him. 

(4) His head jerks up with the, “The fact is, he’s not like anybody I’ve ever known,” bit. Whatever they’ve got going on, she can still surprise him with sincerity. 

(5) “Sounds amazing.” Even more deprecating Banner, but he’ll cop to being a huge dork. 

(6) “Chicks dig that.” His face just says, clearly, but God knows why.

(7) “So, should I fight this or run with it?” Here Nat slips back into their role-play, but Bruce is caught off guard by her earlier sincerity. The following line always bugged me, because I couldn’t quite get a handle on it, but if you look at it like they’ve already started something it makes more sense:

(8) “R-run with it, right? Or did he, was he — what did he do that was so wrong to you?” 

My trashy take is that he and Nat have some kind of brand new agreement — one of those ‘there’s an attraction here, we’re both adults, let’s not fight this, but let’s keep it between us’ kinds of things. 

So when he asks, “R-run with it, right?” he’s like, wait, that was the plan, is it changing? Did I — no that’s to personal — did ‘he’ do something wrong? Did I fuck this up?

(9) “Not a damn thing, but never say never.” Instead of a direct innuendo, I read this as a challenge — Nat’s escalating whatever thing they’ve got on the side and Bruce all but gulps. 

(10) “No that wasn’t, we haven’t — ” His fluster always struck me as hiding something, you know, protesting too much. 

(11) And his follow-up line, “Natasha, she likes to flirt,” doesn’t sound like he particularly believes it. In fact, he kinda snorts in acceptance and smiles and enjoys the moment when Steve says this is different.

(12) The waiting too long line seems to signify that they are waiting, but Bruce reacts more to the “you both deserve a win” part. His smile is kind of furtive, like, ‘yeah, I got a secret.’ This could be the impetus Bruce needs to embrace Natasha’s less discreet flirting and move their thing on the sly out into the open, where he’d be exposed but maybe it kinda definitely worth it 

(13) The parting line has that jealous touch, which would make even more sense if they’re a secret thing.

(14) And, of course, they’re deep in conversation in the next scene, signifying a tentative move toward letting everyone in on their thing.

As for why they would keep things between them a secret: 1) Have you met Tony ‘hide the zucchini’ Stark? 2) Bruce is deeply self-conscious and probably feels like the lullaby scenario screams his feelings for her too loudly already, so he’d want to be reserved, 3) However deep his feelings for Natasha, Bruce knows 100% there’s no future in it, 4) So Natasha, sensing that, would understand that Bruce would only be ready for a no-strings kind of deal, 5) But, by the time we get to the Bar Scene, Nat is ready for some strings and has a plan to make that happen — Up to and including  _possibly_  sending Cap in to wingman her. She does leave awfully abruptly when he comes over…

Anyway, Bruce and Nat having something on the sly makes the farm scene (in terms of their ‘window,’ in terms of jumping in the shower, in terms of running away together) less abrupt and leaves a lot of doors open for fic, without completely blowing canon out out of the water (canon is my thing, I’m obsessive). 

So that’s my trashy, trashy justification. I’m gonna fic it soon, so if anyone has some opinions as to whether or not this scenario makes sense in the context of the rest of the movie, lay ’em on me!


	13. brucenat headcanons

Did another re-watch (can Thursday come already?), and I couldn’t help sharing some short, short observations and headcanons to see what y’all think. Under the cut:

**Headcanon #1: Nat understands completely that the Hulk is a manifestation of Bruce’s childhood trauma**

Evidence 1a: The first time we hear Nat address the Hulk, her voice goes from low and short to high and sweet. She usually uses that voice whenever she speaks to the Hulk. She also uses that voice when she addresses Nathaniel as a “traitor.” It’s her ‘talking to little kids’ voice.

Evidence 1b: Scarlett said that the Hulk brings out her motherly instinct.

Theory 1: I think the phrase, “The sun’s gettin’ real low,” is not a random phrase but, rather, one that Bruce remembers his mother saying to him. Bruce’s mother could have even called him, “Big guy,” as a nickname, like, “Sweetie.”

**Headcanon #2: Nat is a teensy bit jealous of Dr. Helen Cho.**

Evidence 2a: When Tony mentions her name, Nat ducks her head. (Ducking heads is a thing in this movie. So many ducked heads.)

Evidence 2b: Bruce geeks out about Helen’s research, and Nat just gives him eyes over her drink.

Theory 2: Imagine all the time Helen Cho must have spent in Bruce’s lab for her to “know her way around” — I bet Nat paid more than one contrived visit to the lab whenever Dr. Cho’s around. Of course, Dr. Cho herself only has eyes for Thor, as you do.

**Headcanon #3: Nat chooses now to make her move for two compelling reasons: one, because Bruce acknowledged the magic words — he trusts her; two, because the job is finished.**

Evidence 3a: Trust is Nat’s arc word. She got it from Steve, she never quite had it with Fury. She earned it with Clint and his family. The lullaby worked better than ever and Bruce as much as says it in the Quinjet.

Evidence 3b: Ever since SHIELD fell, the Avengers have been stealing SHIELD tech back from arms dealers, dealing with enhanced, and looking for the scepter. The job is finished, which could mean anything but might mean a vacation and Nat knows whose company she wants.

**Headcanon #4: Bruce did not know about Clint’s family, but always wondered about his relationship with Natasha.**

Evidence 4a: Nat, despite her data dump, would never share secrets of that caliber. She values the Barton family far too much for that.

Evidence 4b: The look that Nat gives Bruce when they first get to the farm seems like the end of a conversation. [”You and Barton never…” “Never.” “Why not?” “Three good reasons.” (leaves it at that).]

**Headcanon #5: Nat and Banner shared the bed / Nat, alas, did not share the  bed with Banner at Clint’s farm. — I can’t make up my mind.**

Evidence 5a: The talk of doubling up leading right into Laura outing Bruce and Nat to Clint makes me think she’ll arrange something. 

CounterEvidence 5a: Clint brought the Avengers to his house for Nat. Sure, he wants to see them, too, but really he sees Nat in pain and he wants to get her where she’ll feel safe and at home. [Headcanon inside a headcanon: I imagine he brought her to Laura after she changed sides and demonstrated her loyalty but still couldn’t adjust to the world outside assassin-ing. Laura and the kids, though the end of Nat’s crush on Clint, brought her back to a world she’d never really known.] If Nat didn’t sleep (and I mean sleep) with Banner, she shared a tiny twin bed with Clint’s daughter. 

CounterEvidence 5b: Also, the door was open, which indicates she didn’t just wake up and wait. Plus she had stuff with her. Plus Bruce is surprised to see her.

Evidence 5b: She could have gotten up really early and left and then came back, which is why Bruce is surprised to see her. She could have gone out to the jet to get her stuff.

**Headcanon #6: Bruce Banner can have sex and may have had been intimate with Nat in the past.**

Evidence 6a: When Nat says she would have joined him, he replies, “We missed our window,” not, “You woulda died, lady.” If he couldn’t have sex, he would have thrown that in her face when he was trying to convince her she was crazy. He would have said something like, “We could never be together…that way,” not, “I can’t give you this.” He can’t have kids because of the gamma radiation, but if he can keep his cool when his murderbot is on a rampage or when Scarlet Witch blasts him at the lab he’s clearly not operating on the “heartrate = Hulk” system anymore. He may be wary, but he’s learned to trust his control.

Evidence 6b: When Nat says she would have joined him, he replies, “We missed our window,” not, “WHAAAA? You mean…sex?  ~~Screw this, I’m gonna live” (a la _Serenity_ ).~~ So…yeah, there’s a comfort there. (Beyond the fact that I bet Nat and everyone has seen him naked a lot before the new stretchy pants got introduced onto the scene.)

Theory 6: Bruce and Nat have only ever had intimate moments (however far those moments went) before they brought the band back together, so to speak, and no one knows. Nat is a different person after CA:TWS and however they left things, they both have to develop a different sort of trust and friendship as members of a Team rather than people who drift in and out of each other’s life (this is all rambly; I need to think on this more). 

Lots more thoughts rattling around up here, but that’s all for now!


	14. Natasha + Red Room

More people are responding to the Red Room part of AoU, and one thing I read was very thoughtful, but I think missing some key elements that are essential to keep in mind to contextualize the scene. Spoiler-talk:

The thoughtful argument I’m talking about boiled down the writer’s problem with Natasha in AoU to the following problem:  _Bruce is a monster because of what he has done to other people. Natasha is a monster because of what was done to her. This takes away her moral agency._

I agree. It does. That’s exactly what Scarlett says is happening to Natasha in an interview — Natasha is realizing that she’s never made active choices, that she’s a product of what she was made in the Red Room.

Is this antifeminist? Of course it is — The Red Room itself is both a subversion and a shining example of sexism. The Red Room takes young girls and trains them to be assassins because women are often overlooked (subversion). It also brainwashes little girls to do horrible things for a fictionalized Mother Russia (which really means the men who control that Mother Russia) (example). Anything from Natasha’s past is going to be problematic from a feminist perspective, if your idea of the feminist perspective is that nothing should ever be problematic. For me, I think what the feminist perspective does is throw those aspects into sharp relief and engage us in a conversation with  _why is this wrong?_

However, the thing is, the characters as we know them are not that dichotomy between who is ‘a monster because of what they do’ and who is ‘a monster because of what was done to them.’ In Avengers 1, Natasha is described as the monster who does bad things. She’s described that way again in Captain America 2. We know that character beat. Sure, Joss could have shown that to us — graduation could have been all about killing a Red Room friend or an innocent child — all those would have been effective ways of telling us that Natasha was scarred by her time in the Red Room and that she considers herself a monster because of it.

Instead, we’re shown the same horror at different angle. Natasha has been dealing with all that red in her ledger since she joined SHIELD. That’s not going to throw her to the same degree. 

We’re shown (and, by extension, Natasha shows herself, because this is what’s in her head)  _her mother figure_ , we’re shown  _ballet and beauty_. We’re shown the things in her young life that she clung to during the Red Room. These are the things that kept her from becoming a monster completely (imagine Nat as a remorseless killer with no longings for herself — she wouldn’t be Nat). These are also the things that she loved that made the monstrous things she did do so much worse for her. 

Something about her was never completely brainwashed in the Red Room. As good as she was, as brainwashed as she was, deep down  _she knew better_ and  _she wanted more_. That’s where the guilt comes from. Without that piece, what on Earth would Clint have seen in her that kept him from putting arrow right through her forehead? That piece of her is essential, and I’m glad we got it rather than another instance of “Natasha do this for Russia/SHIELD/HYDRA + ‘I did it so/because I’m a monster’” — this is a key character beat, but not her only one.

Let’s talk sterilization. The always eloquent Kat (maidenpools ) pulls that apart here. I’ll add that by saying that this not some deep dark secret that she can’t tell anyone because *hiss*  _infertile women are monsters_. That’s…just, no. 

What it is is this pain she’s harbored since she was 15/16 (whenever graduation was). It’s not the fact of sterility that bothers her, it’s what  _allowing_  herself to undergo that operation means to her. “We have no place in the world” / “It makes everything easier, even killing.” After graduation, she truly became a monster, because she  _agreed_  to take her place as no one/a Red Room graduate. This is where that moral agency part comes back into roaring relief.

Natasha tries to fail so she wouldn’t have to graduate. She doesn’t want to be sterilized because I’m sure her mother figure trainer told her all kinds of antifeminist bullshit about ‘mothers are this’ ‘weapons are that,’ ‘we’re/Russia is your only family.’ By submitting to the sterilization, she agrees that her place in the world is no place. She gives up the thing she wants — a mother, to be a mother, to have her mother back,  _family and a normal life, those themes the boys are dealing with, too_  — and the part of her who doubted the Red Room enough to try to fail gradation  _no matter the cost_ , stopped whispering in her ear, “This is wrong. You’re better than this killing. You value life. You’re not a monster” — that voice got quiet. Killing was easier after that, because submitting to graduation was her choice. Not a choice that was entirely her own (those are rare enough in real life), but a (passive) choice nevertheless. 

The graduation ceremony is not a comment about the fact of sterility. The movie is not saying  _women who can’t have children are monsters._ Granted, it never explicitly says that  _women who can’t have children are not monsters, here’s an example of a woman who can’t have a child who is not a monster, see?_  But, really, does it have to? The fact that “nothing but the assassin they made me” and “neither can I [have kids]” are getting conflated is deeply strange to me. 

Now, this choice to graduate in spite of having to give up the one thing she’d clung to throughout the Red Room (the possibility motherhood, a family of her own) is her darkest moment. It is brought up when she is standing in front of a man who also made a (passive) choice that took away his ability to have a family. They’re saying to each other, “We’re killers of our own semi-design. We’re monsters. We’re scarred by that physically. We’ll never be able to walk away and create a family and forget.” All that is true for them. But what they’re also saying is, “We can still start over, and we can do it together. We have a choice to be here or not to be here. What are we going to choose this time?”

The answer to that question turns out to be the same, if different, for both of them: “Use the monster. Go be a hero.” Bruce creates the Vision. Nat finishes the job.  

TL;DR; The graduation ceremony is not a comment on sterility, but the point in Natasha’s character arc at which she chose to be a monster/killer (used interchangeably throughout the film). The fact that she wants a family and thinks she can have that with Bruce  _including_  the red in her ledger  _and takes steps toward that choice_ is immensely powerful.

* * *

**anonymous said:**  
**What exactly do you think would have happened to Natasha if she hadn't "chosen" to graduate? I suspect nothing good, either death or even more brainwashing, and with that level of** cohersion **, how could it be called a choice, even a passive choice?**

This is a great question, definitely a complex one. Under the cut:

I would say that had Natasha not “chosen” to graduation, the consequences would have been dire, as you suggest. They wouldn’t kill her unless they felt they couldn’t brainwash her. Either way, she would not have been Natasha anymore.

The nuance here is that she graduated still with whatever bit of humanity that made her Natasha — suppressed but not erased.

I agree that, either way, it’s not much of a choice. She was raised in this environment, and I imagine with no small part of Stockholm Syndrome. I wonder, did she know what would happen to her if she failed? 

That would depends on how much the Red Room manipulated her into feeling loved. Maybe she thought (hoped) her trainer would spare her. We see her trying to fail and we see her trainer admonishing her for that. But the trainer is soft-voiced, not angry. She knows that convincing Natasha will be much more effective than erasing her. That’s why she puts in the work to talk her into the procedure instead of forcing her. 

If Natasha hadn’t chosen to submit, they would have forced her one way or another, no doubt (she’s an asset, an investment).

But then her story would be, “They raised me, I tried to escape, they forced me to be monster.” Which, for her, would be much different than, “They raised me, I wanted to fail but ultimately accepted I have no place in the world, I am a monster.” 

We know it was “forced” and not much of a choice at all and, deep down, she understands this, too. 

But I imagine even that “passive” choice, that acceptance — even though it was a choice she hates that she made — I think it’s essential to her that she reflect on that moment as a choice. She’s such a strong person that she needs to feel she played a part in what happened to her in order to feel like she can make it right.

Thanks for the question!


	15. Natasha + Rescue

Many people keep saying that Natasha needed to be rescued as if it’s a given, and, yeah, kinda, I can see the annoyance from a representational standpoint, but in the context of the film…eh, I don’t see what the fuss is about. Spoilers:

 _Point One:_  Yeah, she got abducted. But, as someone wrote awhile ago, Ultron grabbed the first Avenger he could get his hands on, because he wanted someone around for company. He’s a lonely Muderbot. He didn’t target her because he felt she was the weak link or because he wanted a woman or anything. She was the one in his grasp so he grasped her.

 _Point Two:_  There is fear/wariness on her face when she backs into the cell. Yup. Ultron is cray-cray. She’s not an idiot.

 _Point Three:_  She McGuyvers up a radio and finds a signal to save herself. If she hadn’t done that, it would’ve taken the Avengers longer to find Ultron, leaving them even less than 3 minutes to suit up and get going.

 _Point Four:_  Maybe she tries to escape, maybe she doesn’t. She doesn’t know Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver switched sides. The smart play is to sit tight and not get taken out by mind control. Notice when Bruce gets there, she’s immediately in business mode: “What’s our play?” She trusts her team. [It’s also possible that she knew the only thing that could possibly bring Bruce (and the Other Guy) to the party was her, but that might be a stretch.]

 _Point Five:_ Something about getting taken changed her mind about just disappearing. Maybe Ultron did take this time to share his evil plan with her. Maybe she just imagined the Avengers fighting without her while she’s stuck in a cell and that didn’t sit right with her. Either way, when Bruce “rescues her” — a.k.a., opens a door for her — it’s nice and sweet and she’s touched and adores him for it (he admires me and thinks I’ve done enough, she thinks, and, how cute is he all macho with that gun, we all think).

But she’s already thinking of ways to convince Bruce to join the fight. She gives him one shot — sure you’re not about to go green? — and then takes matters into her own hands. Natasha offers a lot of skills to the Avengers, and one of them is Hulk Wrangling. She does her job, and she shows the Hulk/Bruce how much she trusts him in a very strange and complex way.

So, yeah, it’s a rescue, but it’s not really like she  _needs_  to be rescued. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

anonymous said:  
I'm stunned to read people complaining of Nat's kidnapping in AoU. i mean, when you're an Avenger and you get headlong into danger, the realistic thing is suffer consequences. That made me think of the physical damage overall in all the Avengers, and it's a quite interesting thing to compare! Obviously Nat and Clint are the more injured because they haven't super-suits or god blood and miraculous serum, but the truth is that all of them have been through the hospital. Steve/Clint the most.

Absolutely, Anon! 

The narrative called for  _someone_  to be taken by Ultron to ramp up the stakes and give the audience a glimpse into his villainous insanity, the power of his new form, and how getting the cradle away from him wasn’t going to stop his evil plans. If I remember my creative writing class correctly, this is called a pinch point. 

So, what are the alternatives? 

  1. Natasha plays the Clint role and flies the jet, thus cutting out one of her coolest moments in any film, dropping out of the Quinjet on her motorcycle and carrying around the Shield? BIG NO.
  2. Clint gets captured instead? Somehow? But the cradle still gets back to Stark? Nonsensical.
  3. Steve gets captured? Then we lose all the drama during Vision’s creation scene. Not happening.



I’ll shout it to the rooftops —  _Natasha is not taken as a lazy narrative device just because she is a woman_. She’s taken, within the film, because of her  _heroic actions_  and, outside the film, because the narrative needed to  _raise the stakes and make things more personal_ after the villain suffered a setback. 

And, to your excellent point about suffering consequences, let’s talk about why Natasha  _doesn’t_  try to escape from her cell. Did people miss the fact that there are, literally,  _hundreds_  of murderbots with Ultron’s exact consciousness patrolling the tunnels? The ONLY reason Bruce can get to her is because almost all of them have gone street-level, and Natasha has no way of knowing that beyond a reasonable doubt. So her plan to McGuyver up a rescue is  _the smartest_  thing to do. Natasha Romanoff is, above all else, a  _smart fighter_. 

And, yeah, Anon, great point! Natasha is injured a couple times (limping in TA, shot in CA:TWS, banged up in AOU), but every time she heals up pretty instantly. I headcanon that in the MCU:

  * everyone is just more resilient than in the real world,
  * SHIELD has some very good medical tech,
  * and Natasha has a touch of the metabolism/healing/lack of aging she has in the comics due to the Red Room. 



Compared to Clint, as you point, she does tend to get less injured and express pain less obviously, so I think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption. And you’re totally right about Steve! I never thought of it before, but he ends up in the hospital more than anybody.

Thanks for the observations, Anon!

 

 

 

 

anonymous said:  
Do you see as ooc that Nat waits in the dungeon? I feeling lonely for not see it as I'm the a damsel in distress. it's not simple. She sent a message to the team, if she could open the door somehow she did it. So the possibilities are: she cannot or doesn't see it convenient. Stay in the place where her team already knew she was was as good as any other plan. Something that fits perfectly for an agent/spy mentality, imo.

Absolutely with you, Anon! Natasha is not a brash fighter, she’s a  _smart_  fighter. She got her message out. As soon as Bruce came to get her, she wasn’t surprised at all (except for maybe who it was) — she knew someone on her team would get her and that they would have a plan to pass on to her. 

The sheer number of UltronBots that were surrounding her (probably guarding her, too, at one point and then leaving to get in position for the showdown) means it would have been really fucking ridiculous if she could escape. What was she supposed to do? Trick an AI? Take off the bolts and then fight off 1000s? 

Come on. She did the smart thing. If a male character had done that no one would have considered it weak, they would have considered it pragmatic. Automatically labeling all female characters’ choices (or choices made for female characters by writers) negative or weak is so annoying.

 

 

 

 

 

anonymous said:  
"(Also, I was disappointed that Bruce shot the lock instead of going Hulk to save Natasha. If Bruce became the Hulk, despite his misgivings, for Natasha’s sake, that would’ve been significant. Instead, Natasha forced him to become the Hulk against his explicitly stated wishes – how’s that for consent in a relationship?)" thoughts?

Hi, Anon! Not sure where this is from, but I’ll take a stab.

I mean, it’s a thought. I prefer what we got for a few reasons.

 **‘Bruce becomes the Hulk to save Natasha’**  would be cute and all, I like it in fic, but the movie would have to be drastically altered for it to make any kind of sense. First of all, Natasha isn’t really being rescued, she’s being “found” (as Cap says). Bruce grabs a gun and scurries through the tunnels without incident because the robots are occupied (which Nat doesn’t know). But if Bruce has to Hulk out to save Natasha, then it would have to be in a scenario where she actually  _does_  need rescuing. 

(Having him Hulk out to open a door would be super lame. She would not, however, become a damsel in distress in that or any other scenario, because Natasha Romanoff is allowed to be in distress and retain her badassery. Just like a male character. Just like she does in CA:TWS, wherein Cap saves her multiple times. What’s the difference? Don’t ask me — I’m still scratching my head.)

Now, I would be a-okay with Natasha needing rescuing. I think men and women on teams and in power couples should save each other all the time. Big ol’ heart eyes from me if Hulk saves Natasha, provided Natasha’s saving Bruce’s butt just as often. In AOU, we do get to see Natasha playing bodyguard to Bruce, but everyone likes to ignore that in favor of ‘rescue’ rants.

What we get instead is Bruce  _keeping himself together_  in a stressful situation in order to get to Natasha and get her the hell out of dodge. Because “she’s done enough.” In his mind, he  _is_  rescuing her — but not from Ultron or bodily harm, he knows she can handle that. He’s rescuing her from a life of kill or be killed and putting himself out there to help her realize her dream of that “something more.” 

Bruce comes to Sokovia explicitly for that aim and no other. He’s trying to be  _her_ hero, and that’s incredibly moving. Natasha recognizes that instantly. Her face when he tells her she’s done enough is  _heartbreaking_. It’s subtle, because it’s Natasha and  _in character_ , but it’s huge. She adores him for it.

However.

 **‘Natasha forced him to become the Hulk against his explicitly stated wishes’** — which, yep, can’t argue with that. This is the tragedy of their relationship. The act of forcing Bruce to Hulk out to save Sokovia is a violation of trust, and the emotional impact of  _Natasha’s choice_  is something that both of them will carry forward. But, I firmly believe, it’s something they can recover from and forgive each other for.

In the scenario that’s suggested, Bruce Hulks out to save Natasha. He embraces the monster, as he does at the end of TIH. Wouldn’t that be nice? Natasha wants that for him (“You sure you’re not gonna turn green?”), but she knows he’s determined to not trust himself. However, the way he expresses the choice he has made for himself isn’t in a negative (imagine if he’d echoed the “I can’t be around civilians” line) but a positive (“I’ve got a compelling reason not to lose my cool”). That’s character growth.

It’s still not where Natasha is. Natasha wants “something more than a mission” but dreams of being an Avenger. This is a sort of variation on the classic ‘a woman has to choose between personal and professional fulfillment’ cliche. But here  _both_  choices are deeply personal for Natasha, because her profession up until this point has been her entire life (not the other way around as in ‘a woman wants to break into the professional sphere but all her life she’s been told she’ll be more suited to the domestic’). She wants a life. She wants to be hero. She deserves both, and I’m crossing my fingers that she gets both eventually. But for now, she wants to be a hero more than she wants to have a life. So she makes a choice for herself — she’s not going with Bruce right this moment, she’s going to finish the job.

Now, the choice she makes for Bruce underscores how much she’s willing to risk in order to be a hero, in order to save lives. She knows and trusts Bruce as the Hulk around civilians, even if Bruce can’t trust himself. She tells him, “Go be a hero” and he  _listens_. Her choice pays off but choices have consequences. In the end, the price of making that choice is losing Bruce (for now). 

That is such an  _interesting storyline built on choices we actually get to see her struggle with_. I honestly don’t understand why so many people can’t see that. It’s the great mystery of tumblr for me.

Basically all that is to say — if we would have gotten the ‘Bruce Hulks out to save Natasha’ bit we would have lost out on the meaty sacrifice and choice aspect that the story presents us with. It would have been a happy ending, sure, but it would have had far lower stakes for the characters and abridged their respective arcs instead of extending and deepening them. 


	16. Making Sense of Nat's Flirtation in the Farm Scene

[maidenpools](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmaggiecohle.co.vu%2Fpost%2F117775133576%2Fmaking-sense-of-nats-flirtation-in-the-farm-scene&t=OWVhN2ZiYzhjY2JjMjU2MWZmOTJmODEwMjgxYTE1MzQ2MDViY2EwNCxIbnRuYTk5Vg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F117820021300%2Fre-making-sense-of-nats-flirtation-in-the-farm&m=1):

[Keep reading](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmaggiecohle.co.vu%2Fpost%2F117775133576%2Fmaking-sense-of-nats-flirtation-in-the-farm-scene&t=OWVhN2ZiYzhjY2JjMjU2MWZmOTJmODEwMjgxYTE1MzQ2MDViY2EwNCxIbnRuYTk5Vg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F117820021300%2Fre-making-sense-of-nats-flirtation-in-the-farm&m=1)

Your excellent meta gives me so much to think about, I’m going to respond in long form, under the cut:

_What we know in this scene is that it is unlikely that these two shared a bed - the bed Nat is sitting on when Bruce comes out of the shower is made and Bruce says that he didn’t mean to keep her waiting because he didn’t know she was up - so she must’ve slept in another room._

I agree with this. It’s completely logical.

It’s not, however, going to stop me from headcanoning that Laura Barton  _did_  put them in a room together — that doubling-up conversation is too good not have it have consequences, plus  _something_  has to make Tony realize that Nat and Banner “playing hide the zucchini” is a viable possibility.

In my shipper brain, they do get paired together, but Bruce is still keyed up so Nat respects his space. But she needs physical comfort, so she ends up cuddling in Lila’s tiny bed. Bruce wakes up and she’s gone, so he goes to look for her and sees her and his heart breaks and he goes back to bed even more alone and even more resolved to let Nat go so she could have a family of her own some day…Yeah, I’m gonna fic that after finals. DIBS. ;)

Anyway, she borrows a robe and some things from Laura and comes back in to take a shower, and that’s where we get our scene.

_He’s still unconvinced that his unexpected Hulk-out was truly for the best, and she asks him when he will trust her, to which he replies that it isn’t her he doesn’t trust. This is HUGE for Nat - it a reversal from the mutual distrust between them in the beginning of the first film, at the end of which Bruce and Natasha had established a tentative trust, and trust is that which Natasha longs for most…_

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes forever. This is perfectly put!

_The Avengers have dealt with the last HYDRA base and are having a farewell party before going their separate ways for a time. So she’s choosing to make her move and make things serious between them - he’s who she wants to be with._

So it  _was_  a farewell party for the Avengers. I was confused. It seemed like the farewell party was planned before they captured the scepter, so I was wondering who it was for? That confused me a lot.

But, yes, she’s definitely choosing this moment to move forward. Whatever they’d had before had been deep in terms of two people learning to trust each other (and the Other Guy), but also casual in terms of their flirting and chemistry.

_During the scenes in the lab prior to the party, we see a lot of tense looks and stolen glances pass between Bruce and Natasha. I’d analyze them further, but it’s hard to see them well with only the crappy cam version of the film to work with._

My queendom for HQ footage and/or time to go to the movies tomorrow.

_Then we have the party scene. Bruce approaches Natasha and begins their little 1940s roleplay banter that sounds like something out of Casablanca…_

Totally of one mind here.

I’ll add that, yes, the falling-into-boobs schtick was cheesy, but it’s kind of a Marvel  _thing_  (AoS did it a couple days ago, Guardians did it, I could go on…). And what I really like about is that for once it wasn’t an accident. Nat pulled that man on top of her. Get it, girl.

And how adorable is their whispered conversation? I could listen to Bruce say, “I won’t,” that earnestly forever and ever. That was definitely him saying, “I TRUST YOU.”

_Then we have the Hulkbuster disaster and Nat’s visions. All the Avengers are shaken, Nat and Bruce in particular. Bruce has hurt innocent people, and Nat has had to relive the worst memories of her life. They have both been reminded that they feel, deep down, that they have been made into creatures that can only destroy, never create._

The  _Frankenstein_  themes are great, and you’re great for pointing them out all the time.

_So, back to the farm scene. Bruce gets out of the shower and when Nat says she wishes she’d showered with him, he says they “missed their window” and she asks “Did we?” He doesn’t seem surprised that she suggests it, nor does he seem uncomfortable being shirtless around her. However, I don’t think they’ve ever been intimate before because when they were roleplaying at the bar and Bruce asked her what a certain guy (him) had done to her that was so wrong, she said “Nothing yet, but never say never.” They’ve obviously flirted in the past, maybe she’s even suggested sleeping together before, but I don’t think they’ve ever actually done it._

I agree and disagree with this. It’s completely logical, so I agree with it. But also feel like there’s too much relaxed energy between them for this to be the first time sex has been on the table. There’s something  _more_ here, and I, like you, wish we had more to go on. I’m just going to add my interpretation, but this isn’t an argument against yours, because either way works with what we’ve been given. Plus, Joss has this weird fetish for unconsummated relationships, so you’re probably on exactly the right track.

However. I prefer my adult characters to behave like adult characters instead of pining, so I’m gonna headcanon something different. I’m going to interpreting the line: “What did he do that was so wrong to you?” / “Not a damn thing, but never say never” as both an innuendo/invitation, but also kind of an admission of the possibility of heartbreak.

Like, I get this feeling that most of their dialogue consists of callbacks. They seem to be speaking in shorthand that we don’t have, you know? Do you get that feeling? So, I can imagine during one of their earlier 40s role-plays, she says something like, “No fella does me wrong. I’m immune to heartbreak,” and the innuendo becomes, “You can ‘do me…wrong’ but also ‘you’ve got my permission to try and break my heart.’ The parallel for that line is, of course, “I think you’re being hard on yourself.” / “Here I was hoping that was your job.” The film freak central guy, of course, pointed out the innuendo here. And, if that’s the case, then the fact that she uses “was” instead of “would be” does speak to past intimacy.

So, it’s ambiguous at the very least. Enough to justify canon-compliant fic, anyway. (I don’t headcanon that they  _are_  having sex, I just get the sense from their ease that they  _have_  had sex in the past, before either of them really caught feelings, but they agreed not to go there again while on the Team even as they started falling for each other in earnest.)

_So this exchange is interesting. I think Natasha is just trying to keep things light like they normally do while also offering something to Bruce that I think she personally finds comforting - the possibility of physical closeness. I think the awkwardness here comes from wanting to just run away from and ignore the elephant in the room - she knows he feels like a monster, and she feels like one too._

Excellent point! She would be awkward after the day/night she had.

_He says he has to leave after Ultron’s been dealt with, and she says she’ll come too. I don’t think she’d leave otherwise, but she wants to stay with him, she wants to make an active choice and that choice is him. Her vision has reminded her of how monstrous she feels (she’s still having flashbacks to it and actually had one right before this scene). He steps towards her, obviously holding himself back from reaching out to her, and tells her she’s being too hard on herself. She moves in close to him and says, “Here I was hoping that was your job.” It’s said gently, with a great deal of affection and longing in her eyes, and she reaches up to touch his face while he grips her hand. He puts her hand down, slowly, gripping it all the while, and walks away reluctantly, telling her she’s out of her mind._

Beautiful.

_Bruce tells her that on top of being dangerous (even though she says he’s no threat to her), that he can’t give her a family - I think he brings this up because he watched how she was with Clint’s children and a very pointed look passed between them in that scene when everyone first arrived at Clint’s house and Natasha was surrounded by children calling her Auntie Nat. They can hear Clint’s kids through the wall even now. It’s something Bruce assumes she’d want because it obviously gave her great joy, and it’s something he can never give her no matter how much he’d like to._

100% — Nat is more herself in Clint’s house than probably any of the Avengers have ever seen her. This is a new side to her that completes a picture, and Bruce can’t see himself in it.

_She tells him that it doesn’t matter anyway because she was sterilized to make it “easier” to kill people because the possibility of children was “one less thing to worry about.” This is part of how she was made into a weapon, so how can he be the only one on the team to call himself a monster? Someone who feels as if they were made only to destroy but never to create._

Plus, it’s her  _choice_ to kill people, present tense. Bad people, but Bruce is a pacifist and bemoans even hurting them. Nat kills HYDRA officers left and right. She rather violently garroted the  “Hey Sailor” guy so she could make an entrance. Badass, but not exactly angelic. She’s got remorse, but her morals are also much more monstrous than Bruce’s (and that complexity makes me love her character even more). 

_I think the subtext here is that she could create something with him - a life - rather than continuing to feel like nothing more than a killer. She wants to be with him, when it’s all over. ( **[They were never planning to leave until the job was finished, as I explain here.](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmaggiecohle.co.vu%2Fpost%2F117667549491%2Fon-running-away&t=ZmJiYjAwYjY4Y2VhMGNkYTUzMDNmZTdlYWI4YjNjM2NmYThjMDdhMCxIbnRuYTk5Vg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F117820021300%2Fre-making-sense-of-nats-flirtation-in-the-farm&m=1)** ) _

Yup. I agree. I also think there’s something behind this. Not just them on a beach (although that will be part of it), but I think neither of them would ever just stop helping people. I think back in Avengers when he says, “So I moved on. I focused on helping other people. I was  _good_  until you dragged me back into this freak show,” she feels some remorse for knocking him off course on his red ledger-journey and kinda likes his version of  _good_  and  _free_. 

I also headcanon that between Avengers and Cap 2, he took a few sabbaticals from Tony’s lab and, whenever he ran into trouble with is patients, he called her and she came. She didn’t stay long and it didn’t get too personal too quickly, but it did begin to snowball.

_In the end, I think her suggestions that they get physical have to do with the urgency of Natasha’s feelings. She knows he’s skittish, she knows they’re in danger of “missing their window,” but she also knows that he trusts her (as he said on the quinjet), that he has been open to flirtation with her for probably a long time and has an intimate connection with her as the Hulk, and that she can understand him, and he her. So she offers him physical intimacy (awkwardly and earnestly, because like Steve said, she doesn’t open up often and perhaps this is the first time) and empathy, not only because she loves him, but because she wants these things from him as well._

Love, love, love this. 


	17. Bruce Banner + The End of AoU

I’m starting to see some reactions Bruce’s choice at the end of AoU, and I just want to point out something that’s key to the narrative: Humans don’t need to be protected. They need to evolve.

Yes, Bruce did intend to run away from the fight. He makes this choice three times in the film, for three interconnecting but different reasons. 

_At the Farm:_

He intends to run away after Ultron is defeated because, as always, he does not trust the Other Guy. He had formed a shaky alliance with him, but innocent people died and Scarlet Witch is still out there. He adds Nat to his plans and goes back to the Tower with Fury to do what he can remotely  _as Bruce Banner_. He’s not proud of himself. He’s weary, he sees that Nat’s weary. He’s broken here and running for his life in a negative sense.

_When He Finds Nat:_

Here, he is still afraid of the Hulk — “I can’t be around civilians” — but there’s a substantial less self-loathing here. He understand that Nat wants to “finish the job,” so he’s more than willing to help with the evac  _as Bruce Banner_. Instead of being weary, now he’s determined. He’s determined to find Nat, to convince her to go with him, to leave the battle behind after the civilians are saved. Why the change in attitude?

 **Because Bruce Banner created the Vision**  (with lots of help from Cho, Stark and JARVIS, and an assist from Thor, but still). Bruce Banner embraced his monster — the mad scientist version — and he created something worthy enough of Mjölnir. He’s reclaimed his calling in life. In his mind, he’s replaced the Monster the world needs out of a necessary evil with a Vision that can lead it into a future that is truly peaceful; “They don’t need to be protected, they need to evolve.”

By creating the Vision, Bruce can finally live with himself. He can embrace Natasha. He’s got “a compelling reason to keep [his] cool.” He did something good as Banner; the world doesn’t need the Hulk.

But Natasha doesn’t know about the Vision and the Vision hasn’t changed the world yet; Natasha knows the world still needs protection, even if those protectors do have monstrous sides. She wants Bruce. She needs the Other Guy.

_When He Leaves as the Hulk:_

The Hulk is happy to go be a hero and smash robots and save civilians. He’s fine with turning back into puny Banner with the lullaby, until Ultron attacks Nat. Then he’s on a mission — get her to safety, smash Ultron. 

Now, why he stays in plane is harder to parse out, because it depends on how much of Hulk is Bruce and Bruce is Hulk in those moments. But we know that the Hulk is sad to be alone, but he knows it’s best. As much as Bruce wants to believe that Natasha has “done enough,” she hasn’t. Her dream, as much as she disbelieves it, is to be an Avenger. 

He’s not going to take that from her. The Hulk heard her say, “Go be a hero.” So he does. He and Bruce are both being heroes. They’re sad and lonely, but the world is going to be safe without them. (For now. Cue HISHE Thanos: Iiiiiiinfiiiiiiinity Waaaaaars, muhahahaha).

TL;DR: Bruce Banner had his heroic moment when he decided to trust the monster in himself — the part of himself who created the Hulk — and created the Vision instead. He’s running away, yes, but he sees himself as replaced by something more evolved. He’s free of his Avengers obligation. He created  _life_.


	18. The Infertility Misinterpretation

I analyze the farm scene more [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117689977780/natasha-red-room), but the number of people who are misinterpreting that line at the end is really making me so sad. I’m not even going to put this behind a cut, because it’s too out in the open. Let’s break it down:

Bruce: “Even if I didn’t just…In the future with me, I can’t ever have this — kids — do the math, I physically can’t.”

**Bruce: Let’s not forget I just killed and maimed a bunch of people. I’m suffering enough. Now I’m here on this farm watching this idyllic slice of life I can never have and all but told you the first time we met I wanted, that I see makes you light up — and it’s hurting me how much I can’t have this thing that I want and I know you want.**

Natasha: “Neither can I. In the Red Room, where I was trained, where I was raised, um, they have a graduation ceremony. They sterilize you.”

**Natasha: The thing that made you ‘a monster’ took away your ability to create life [metaphor sign starts blinking]. Me, too. That doesn’t mean we can’t be happy together and have a future.**

Natasha: “It’s efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission.”

**Natasha: It eats me up because I want things that matter more than a mission in my life. The process of sterilization was one more dehumanizing thing that I went through and it’s something that I regret.**

**But I’m still standing in front of you, proposing starting a life with you. I don’t think that being sterile makes me unable to love or be happy or have a family. I’m bringing it up because you mentioned your thing as a deal breaker, but it’s not.**

**But, really, I know you’re not just talking about the gamma radiation killing your sperm. The larger issue here is that you feel unsafe. I get that. But Clint and his family helped me get over that feeling, and I can help you.**

Natasha: “It makes everything easier. Even killing.” [Pause] “Still think you’re the only monster on the team?”

**NATASHA: BRUCE, KILLING IS EASY FOR ME. IT’S NOT FOR YOU. WHO’S THE BIGGER MONSTER, HERE?**

**I repeat: You’re a mess over killing even though it was an accident and you were mind controlled and you go to such lengths to disassociate yourself with the Other Guy, because you carry the guilt of creating him. I carry that guilt, too, because, yes, my choices were taken from me, but, me, the Black Widow, I kill easily and have my whole life BECAUSE OF THIS PROCESS OF DEHUMANIZATION, WHICH INCLUDES BUT IS NO WAY DEFINED BY STERILIZATION.**

**I’m mean, I’ll say it again. I’M TALKING ABOUT THE FACT OF KILLING HERE, NOT THE STERILIZATION THING. IN THIS MOVIE KILLERS = MONSTERS, NOT INFERTILE PEOPLE = MONSTERS. THAT’S NOT THE METAPHOR.**

Bruce: “So we just disappear?”

**BRUCE: I’M STILL WORRIED ABOUT THE WHOLE “AVENGERS IS YOUR DREAM” ASPECT, BECAUSE THIS IS THE KEY WAY WE DIFFER AND WHY THE END OF THIS MOVIE IS SO INEVITABLE, BUT I WILL HELP YOU GET AWAY FROM ANYONE WHO WOULD ASK YOU TO KILL, INCLUDING SHIELD, INCLUDING THE AVENGERS.**

**YOU UNDERSTAND MY THING AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR THING. EVEN THOUGH WE CAN’T PHYSICALLY HAVE A FAMILY, WE CAN BE TOGETHER BECAUSE EQUATING STERILITY WITH AN INABILITY TO BE HAPPY OR THE ABILITY TO GO ON MONSTROUS KILLING SPREES IS INSANE.**

**SERIOUSLY, WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT. START BACK UP AT THE TOP IF YOU STILL THINK WE WERE SAYING THAT.**

 

 

 

where in the world is this notion that Natasha doesn’t believe she can have happiness because she’s infertile  _even coming from_? 

Natasha is literally standing in front of Bruce saying, “I want to be with you. We can’t have  _this exact thing_  (Clint’s picture book family life) because of my history and yours, but  _we can still have something good and worth pursing_.” 

She’s the one pursuing Bruce. If she were afraid “no man could ever love her because she’s infertile”  _why would she volunteer that information?_

Her infertility is not something she advertises (contextually, where would it have come up in any of the other films? It  _fits_  here with the theme of creation in Age of Ultron), but her infertility is not a shameful secret, either. If it were she’d be, you know, ashamed to share it. She’s not! It’s just painful to remember! Because it was coerced. And was part of her process of dehumanization — you know  _learning not to value life_. 

If anything, it’s  _Bruce_ saying, “I’m infertile, I can’t be happy,” and Natasha saying, “I’m infertile, too, and we’ll figure out what makes  _us_ happy. Let’s leave the violence behind.”

Because they’re superheroes it’s not the time for that yet, which is why their plan to run after the job’s finished ends in tragedy.

But please remember that Natasha has a  _very healthy relationship_ with Clint’s children. She is  _never_ portrayed as uncomfortable around them or jealous or insecure, the way one could argue Bruce is. She does not suffer from an inferiority complex surrounding her infertility. 

WHY ARE PEOPLE LOOKING AT AN INFERTILE CHARACTER WHO IS ACTIVELY PERUSING A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP AND PROUD OF HER NURTURING PLACE IN THE BARTON CLAN AS SOMEONE WHO IS ASHAMED OF HER INABILITY TO BEAR CHILDREN WHEN SHE IS LITERALLY NEVER DEPICTED AS BEING ASHAMED OF THAT FACT? Stop it. Stop. It’s gross.

 

 

 

anonymous said:  
Oh for pity's sake. Natasha's deepest, darkest secret was not her infertility. Natasha's deepest, darkest secret was that _her fertility and her choice to have or not have children, along with everything else about her body and her mind, had been forcibly ripped away from her to make her nothing but an assassin._ And she is trying so hard to move beyond that, but she still bears the scars of what happened to her and she always will. Infertility is not the monster. 'Killing machine' is.

Real talk. I added a very similar sentiment to the reblog just a second ago. 

I’m so disappointed, too. It’s such a great meta about Furiosa! And then we just  _have to_ throw another woman under the bus to make it valid.

 

 

 

Natasha in AOU: *Actively pursues a romantic relationship.*

Natasha in AOU: *Is very comfortable in her role as "Aunt Nat" to the Barton kids.*

Natasha in AOU: *Regrets forced sterilization because the dehumanizing way it was done to her made killing easier.*

Natasha in AOU: *Explicitly tells Bruce that neither his infertility nor hers bars them from a future together.*

Fandom: Ugh, Marvel is disgusting for reducing Natasha Romanoff to a character who is ashamed of her infertility! She treats it like it's a deep dark secret and that no man will want her because of it! She thinks she's a monster undeserving of happiness!

Me: ...Literally, that is the opposite of what happens on screen??? Where are you getting this???


	19. Natasha + Character Development

There’s been some talk of Natasha not being the same as she was in  _Captain America: the Winter Soldier._  That’s perfectly true, good eye. She’s not. The events of that film  _changed_  her. The Natasha we get in  _AoU_  is a year older and a year wiser and has a home, but she’s not a different character — she’s the character that  _CA:TWS_  created.

Check out this conversation:

Steve: It was not my first kiss since 1945. I’m ninety-five, I’m not dead.  
Natasha: Nobody special, though?  
**Steve: Believe it or not, it’s kind of hard to find someone with shared life experience.  
** Natasha: Well, that’s alright, you just make something up.  
Steve: What, like you?  
Natasha: I don’t know. The truth is a matter of circumstances, it’s not all things to all people all the time. And neither am I.  
Steve: That’s a tough way to live.  
Natasha: It’s a good way not to die, though.  
**Steve: You know, it’s kind of hard to trust someone when you don’t know who that someone really is.  
Natasha: Yeah. Who do you want me to be?**

Here, Natasha is in an odd place. She wants there to be someone special for Steve. She thinks he deserves it. For herself, she makes do. She meets people and pretends and that’s enough. Here, she  _agrees_  that it’s hard to trust her, but what can she do? It’s a good way not to die.

Once SHIELD falls and HYDRA is revealed, her axis is completely thrown of kilter. She  _wants_  Steve to trust her. She’s  _sad_  that Fury doesn’t, not as much as Maria. She’s not ready for the world to see her as she really is, whoever could be, but she’s willing to do what it takes to make things right.

At the end of  _CA:TWS_ , this is where we leave her:

Steve: Not going with him? [Fury]  
Natasha: No.  
Steve: Not staying here?  
Natasha: I blew all my covers, I gotta go figure out a new one.  
Steve: That might take a while.  
Natasha: I’m counting on it.

Natasha isn’t single-mindedly in pursuit of wiping the red out of her ledger. If she were, she would have gone with Fury and continued fighting the fight. Instead, we see her taking some time for herself. Now, there could definitely be some ass-kicking involved, but I really get the vibe that she’s about to kick back for a bit and figure her stuff out.

Between CA:TWS and AoU, she’s lost her center but found a home with the Avengers. She’s decided to try to be herself and that is awkward when you’ve been disseminating for so long. 

In Bruce, she finds the reversal of the first conversation with Steve.  **Bruce (and the rest of the world) knows who she is, past and present, and he _trusts_  her. Bruce, creator of Hulks and survivor of childhood abuse, has  _shared life experience_.**

Now, I’m a ‘shipper, so obviously I want them to be more, if not end game. But, even if brucenat never reunites, even if Bruce was the absolute wrong person for her to try it out on, this step that everyone is maligning so much is  _crucial_  to her character development.

Natasha wants for herself  _real love_ and she  _takes active steps to obtain it_. It’s the logical next step to her character growth in  _CA:TWS_. 

Brucenat may not be your thing, totally fine, but it isn’t superfluous to Natasha’s character arc.

SPOILER:

As a Natasha Romanoff fan first and a brucenat shipper second, the logical next step for her in her heroic journey is NOT to drop everything and go find Bruce. It’s to make the active choice to  _realize being an Avenger is not a dream but her reality_. 

Because she has an alternate choice, because she has a time of self-doubt, the fact that she chooses to stay is all the more powerful.


	20. Natasha + Heroic Arc

“…But isn’t it weird that, by the final action sequence, Black Widow’s main role is the same role as Pepper Potts in Iron Man, or Jane Foster in Thor: The lady who helps her man become a hero? “I adore you,” she tells Bruce Banner, right before she forces him to Hulk out and save the day. He also saves her life, and then makes the executive decision to disappear—To protect her, I guess? Even though the last time they talked, she made it pretty clear that she didn’t need to be protected?”— [Entertainment Geekly: The Black Widow Conundrum](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ew.com%2Farticle%2F2015%2F04%2F29%2Fentertainment-geekly-black-widow-conundrum%3FhootPostID%3D0b57b92f7742ff01b2fe0291509973cf&t=ZWI3YzVkZjZjOWVkZjM5MTY3ZDQ0Yzc0NTU4MTU0MDE2ZDgzZTVmYSxEcWRuYU1Scw%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F117873592490%2Fspoilery-review&m=1)

Am I  _crazy_? Why does no one see Natasha’s heroic arc? It’s so obvious to me!

Natasha believes she has a home and a purpose as an Avenger, and she believes she can have love, too. Then her confidence is shaken and she contemplates running away with at least that last part. But when the moment comes she can’t do it. She’s a hero. She’ll jeopardize her shot at love to save the damn day, and she’ll look at the clouds and say, “This isn’t a bad view to die with,” and she’ll survive and be sad but she’ll stay and fight as an Avenger (even while  _four of her male counterparts choose otherwise)_.

What’s more, _she_   _forces_  Hulk to save the day, because one of her jobs is to be the Hulk Tamer. She doesn’t inspire Bruce to accept his heroic nature. She flat-out makes a call and throws him into an abyss. She takes away his agency for the greater good. That’s gonna leave a mark on them both.

Plus, Bruce leaving isn’tabout protecting her anymore, they hashed that out at the farm! It’s about what Bruce fantasizes about (laying low, doing good as himself, ever turning into the Hulk) does not at this juncture align with Natasha’s dream of being an Avenger.  _They want fundamentally different things_.

Are we so used to the same stories over and over again that we literally can’t see anything else? I’m in loop! What is this madness?


	21. brucenat + in-canon reactions: Nick Fury

maidenpools mentioned in her last post how much of a shipper Fury is, so I thought it would be fun to do a breakdown of in-canon brucenat reactions, starting with Fury. 

**Nick Fury**

_Fury: [Bruce] Probably jumped out and swam to Fiji. He’ll send a postcard._

_Natasha: ‘Wish you were here.’ You sent me to recruit him, way back when. Did you know then what was gonna happen?_

_Fury: You never know. You hope for the best, then make do with what you get. I got a great team._

_Natasha: Nothing lasts forever._

The fact that Fury is a ‘shipper is the best evidence that Whedon didn’t pull brucenat out of thin air. 

In  _Avengers_ , there’s this great moment after this exchange, one of my favorites:  **“You didn’t come here because I bat my eyelashes at you.” / “Yes, and I’m not leaving because you get a little twitchy.”**  They’ve only got eyes for each other, and Fury looks between them with that all-knowing stare.

We know that Sitwell is the handler for the Bruce Banner case, but Fury chooses Romanoff as his recruiting agent. She’ll “persuade him,” the idea being she’ll give him that soft touch and little subtle flirting to put him at ease (for Banner, anyway).  **And it works, mainly; he might see right through Nat’s flirting — he’s too self-deprecating and wary of SHIELD to mistake it — but he does appreciate that Fury is “asking nicely.”**

We also know that SHIELD wants Banner as a permanent member of the Team (even if they disband every now and again). So he needs a Hulk wrangler. Natasha saw Banner protecting Betty at Culver and a lot of witnesses saw him touch hands with her in Harlem. To Fury, it’d be obvious that the Hulk has a tender spot for women — and it’s more effective to nudge Nat and Bruce together than it would be to train Betty Ross as an Avenger (pour one out for Red She-Hulk and other things that will never be). 

 **So, yes, he envisioned a Team with a Hulk Tamer. Did he see Bruce and Natasha “happening?”**  The dialogue in  _AoU_  strongly implies that he might have had an inkling of their kindred spirits. He says “hope for the best” — the best case scenario being Bruce and Nat  _actually_ learning to trust and rely on each other, rather than creating some kind of sham that blows up in everyone’s faces. 

Anything to add?


	22. Drop your headcanons here re: Tony finding out about brucenat

Since this film is titled  _The Avengers_  and not  _Black Widow, Hulk, and Friends who Comment On Them_ , I can see (begrudgingly) why we skipped the part where brucenat becomes a known quantity. 

When we first get to the farm, only Steve and Fury have demonstrated any inkling toward a romantic Bruce + Natasha (they obviously realize they’re close, a la the lullabies). 

By the end of the film, Bruce is designated the one to find Natasha and Tony is making his trademark bad innuendos about them: “Romanoff, you and Banner better not be playing ‘hide the zucchini.”

Tony is an interesting character to play this romance off because he’s so close to Banner and he’s been, in the past, so mistrustful of Natasha in particular and spies in general. 

So, bring me your reasonableness, your shippery crack, anything!

**The question is, when/how did Tony find out and what was his reaction?**

[blueincandescence](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117996318745/drop-your-headcanons-here-re-tony-finding-out):

> Since this film is titled  _The Avengers_  and not  _Black Widow, Hulk, and Friends who Comment On Them_ , I can see (begrudgingly) why we skipped the part where brucenat becomes a known quantity.
> 
> When we first get to the farm, only Steve and Fury have demonstrated any inkling…

These are great! I definitely like the idea that Tony noticed  _and_ the idea of him teasing Bruce about Nat is just love. Oh, and Pepper noticing; I definitely want the Pepper/Nat friendship explored in fic! 

For me, I’m a sucker for conflict, so, after reading your guys’ suggestions, I headcanon the following: 

Tony does notice that Nat is in the lab a lot and that she and Bruce are getting closer. It’s obvious, but also kind of not, considering how close she is with Steven and Clint and how she’s on a mission to bond to with each Avenger. Tony reads that somewhat cynically (she’s doing it purposefully but also innocently; she really wants to earn their trust), because, as much as he accepts her, the ‘triple impostor’ thing is always in the back of his mind. He worries that Nat’s flirting isn’t harmless when it comes to Bruce (not realizing that it’s Nat who’s getting more serious about it every day). The dismissive, ‘Natasha likes to flirt,’ concept is egged on by Tony.

It’s not until the farm house (after the Talk) that Tony (and everyone) realizes that Bruce and Nat are actually a  _thing_  from a romantic standpoint and, insanity of insanities, it’s hesitant and awkward but  _mutual_. 

There’s a million “I Wish” scenarios that I have for the brucenat in this movie, but I wish there had been a mini-arc where Tony was our audience substitute. Steve was instead — he represented the people who wanted brucenat, and that clearly wasn’t as effective as if, say, Tony started the movie with a cynical quip about Bruce’s crush on Nat and ‘the most dangerous game’ he’s playing by flirting with the Black Widow, then he reacts to brucenat being a couple (much the way he reacted to the ‘smaller agents’), then he makes the terrible innuendo, but, when it’s all said and done, he comforts Nat with some kind of small acknowledgment that she was good for Bruce. Nothing cheesy (a la The Hobbit’s “Because It’s Real”). Just something subtle.


	23. Bruce + Natasha + Character Dynamics

The gif of Clint staring down Bruce after his joke Hulk-out made think about how the characters feel about each other.

 **Clint + Bruce:**  Clint is not having Bruce. I don’t think he actively dislikes him, per say, but they don’t click.  _Evidence:_ The aforementioned look; “He’s still Barton” / “That’s terrible” exchange; the  _tone_  Clint has after Bruce speaks up from the corner at the farmhouse, when they’re talking about the Nexus; the dismissive way he says, “Nat and… _Banner?_ ”; and the fact that they literally never interact. Like I said, not hatred, just deep ambivalence. I think SHEILD agents in general probably have that toward him, because they have files on top of files of Bruce’s destructive capabilities  _and_  all the unethical self-experimentation he did. 

 **Clint + Natasha:**  Besties for life, obviously. I think her sense of humor is her own, but he drew it out and made it okay during missions (I’m sure the Red Room was not full of yucks). Very sibling dynamic (after the headcanon early crush I think Nat had on him went away). 

 **Thor + Bruce:**  Thor likes Bruce and he isn’t fazed by the Hulk; there are ‘monsters’ all over the Nine Realms. He doesn’t quite get why Banner can’t control the Hulk — “Try to think!” — or why Banner doesn’t respect his warrior potential. Pacifists, as we learn on SHIELD, are a strange breed in Asgard, but not unlikeable.

 **Thor + Natasha:**  Do these two ever speak? (Besides the, “Take care with how you speak, he is my brother,” “He killed 80 people in two days,” bit). Anyhow, Thor definitely respects her warrior spirit, and she respects him, too. The spy/deception thing is not particularly Asgardian (minus Loki), but she knows her way around a weapon. She appreciates having a god on the team. ETA: An anon pointed out that they do, in fact, speak on the Quinjet. It’s a very military report (”Thor, report on the Hulk”), which seems to suit their warrior-to-warrior dynamic. She’s definitely on friendly enough terms to give him that ‘WTF, I was asking  _for help here’_ look, which was hilarious. 

 **Steve + Bruce:** Steve genuinely accepts Bruce. He figures that what happened to Bruce could have easily happened to him, and Bruce was just unlucky. He admires his pacifism and how deeply he cares about not hurting people. He’s also a fellow ‘shipper. <3

 **Steve + Natasha:** New best friends! They don’t have the sibling dynamic that she and Clint do; I think there is attraction there, but they both know the ‘work wife/husband’ bit suits them better. But Natasha admires the hell out of his idealism and Steve has a long admiration for kickass women. My brOTP.

 **Tony + Bruce:** ScienceBros, obviously. They also have a sibling dynamic, the way they push each other’s buttons. They bring out the best and the worst in each other, which is equal parts brilliant and horrifying. 

 **Tony + Natasha:** Tony does not trust spies and does not easily treat them as people (sure “his name was Phil,” but he was still flabbergasted by Barton’s family). He trust Natasha on the team, but he still sees that duplicity within her. 

 **Maria + Bruce:**  She also does not look too amused by the Hulk/hammer joke. I think she’s cool and professional toward Bruce; he’s an unknown quantity and those are not her favorites.

 **Maria + Natasha:** They’re cool toward each other from an outsider’s perspective, but get them alone and all the snark is happening (from Agents of SHIELD — GW: “If Fury wanted eye candy, he could have at least picked Romanoff.” MH: “I’ll tell her you said that.”). Maria Hill, Natasha Romanoff, Melinda May, and Bobby Morse are office friends and you can’t tell me otherwise. Natasha is friendly in the workplace (”What’s her name?” “Sharon. She’s nice.”). Not overly friendly, but she  _likes_  working with women who she doesn’t have to worry about stabbing her in the back the way Widows do.

 **Fury + Bruce:**  He does trust Bruce. He understands the power of the Hulk and he takes precautions, but he respects and trusts him enough to let him live off the grid pre-Avengers. 

 **Fury + Natasha:**  Father figure, mentor, boss. He’s got her loyalty for life and, while he does have to keep the circle small, he trusted her enough to make her the elevate her to the Avengers circle of gods and magic.


	24. Natasha + Romantic Arc = Heroic Journey

Arguments I keep hearing:  _“Natasha was reduced to a love interest!!!!!” “The Hulk/Widow thing was so…pointless????”_

Okay, but even if you don’t like the pairing, even if you prefer Natasha as a Badass Female Character Who Don’t Need No Man, consider this:

**Natasha Romanoff was not _reduced_ by her romantic arc; she was  _tested_ by it.**

Superheroes are classic myth archetypes and, in classic myths,  _heroes must be tested to be considered true heroes._ Natasha was always going to stay to “finish the job,” but, in the end, she realizes  _it isn’t a job_ , it’s more than that.  _She’s_  more than that. 

It’s a calling. She’s an Avenger. 

And the impetus for learning this about herself came when she was faced with a real, active choice between two things she  _actually wanted for herself._

 _“I adore you,”_ — she tells Bruce Banner.

 _“Now go be a hero,” —_ She tells the Hulk, speaking for herself.


	25. infertility = monster?

 

anonymous said:  
I'm so relieved to discover that you're a fan of Natasha and Brucenat. I'm a little sad about the controversies and criticisms that have come to the characterization her character in Age of Ultron, because I've seen the movie twice and I still don't understand it. And it hurts me to see that most of those people are fans of Nat. I feel weird. One of those things is the moment: "still think you're the only monster, Bruce?" I have read interpretations as "infertility = monster" (as an idea that

(2) her uterus is the only thing that makes her human), but I never felt it in that way? For me it was clearly a reference to Nat raised as a weapon, totally dehumanized and stripped of herself. No life, no choices. A weapon to kill and nothing more. I’m so stunned by the very negative reception, and that’s make me feel that perhaps I’m who has misunderstood the film. (Sorry for my bad english, btw)

I appreciate the solidarity!

I definitely agree, of course. I understand everyone has the right to their interpretations and the arguments for bad writing, but…it just seems so reductive and overly simple to boil it down to “infertility=monster” when there are a lot of nuances to explore. 

That said, I have seen some interpretations that  _were_  well thought-out, and I appreciated those posts even if they didn’t change my mind. It’s the knee-jerk hypocrisy that gets me.

But can we talk about how this new information informs Natasha’s choices, her interactions with the Barton clan, and all the other million interesting things about this dynamic character instead of  _calling her ruined and praying that two other men will come around and ‘fix’ her?_

Eh, I feel the same way about ‘Nat + cage = she’s a damsel in distress’ from people who are her fans. 

Hasn’t she proven herself  _not_  one enough times? Do these people really think she  _is_  a damsel, and she’s somehow lessened in their eyes? Or are they worried that casuals will  _assume_  she’s a damsel? 

But then there are all the automatic assumptions that she’s a love interest for Bruce when it’s so clearly the opposite? I just don’t know.

The whole movie is a farewell to the Avengers. They’re ALL planning to move on for a time (hello,  _opening farewell party_ ). But Natasha decides to move on with someone she can see would make her happy  _after the job is finished_  and suddenly she’s a traitor to, like, feminism? AND THEN DOESN’T DO IT, but she’s still labeled weak. Just…what?

Anyway, like you said, it makes me sad, too. Thanks for the message!

(Also, your English sounds great to me!)

 

 

[stardust-rain](http://stardust-rain.tumblr.com/post/118042366160/there-seems-to-be-two-approaches-to-natasha-in):

> there seems to be two approaches to Natasha in AoU, both the ‘monster’ scene and her arc with Bruce and one side is accusing the other of hating Natasha and overly-criticising Natasha and having double standards about Natasha in relation to white dudes.
> 
> so here’s the thing:…

This is interesting, and I agree that there’s A LOT to criticize from a metatextual context (representation, etc.) However, there are people who doing what OP is doing and there are people who are simply knew-jerk reactionaries.

And, even still, it’s clear that you can’t divorce the metatextual analysis from analysis of the text. For example, OP writes:

_No one is saying that her self-hatred and ptsd in relation to being sterilised is wrong, but questioning why it was necessary to use that trope to damage a woman, when it’s not something that would be used for a male character (because this kind of narrative implicitly states that womanhood is tied to motherhood and in the metatextual context that is damaging to female audiences)._

  * _First_ : I disagree that the text is saying Natasha is self-hating because she is sterilized. PTSD, definitely, but I don’t for a second think she feels like less of a person because she’s sterilized. I think she regrets the graduation ceremony and she clearly loves Clint’s kids, but she doesn’t hate herself for not having being able to have kids. That is my honest opinion as a member of this female audience. I have not been damaged.
  * _Second_ : It  _was_  used for a male character. Bruce is agonizing over the fact that he can’t have kids, that he can’t give this life to Natasha or Betty or himself. He’s the one who brought up kids. Natasha is perfectly comfortable around them. They don’t remind her that her womanhood is tied to motherhood. They love her and she loves them. It’s  _Bruce_ who’s clearly uncomfortable.



So, my point is, metatextual contextualization is hugely important. BUT it is intrinsically tied to reading of the text. In OP’s opinion, the larger narrative is damaging because it implicitly states something “damaging” — something that I didn’t hear, and, believe me, I was listening.  

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t talk about these kinds of things. We  _should_  question why that trope was used. (I believe it was used because of the Gothic “creation” undertones and the exploration of the home/hero dichotomy the film explores, but I could be wrong on that. I don’t know Joss.)

I just don’t think we should say with 100% certainty that anything is “damaging to female audiences” because female audiences are diverse and have their own thoughts and don’t need to be protected from the exploration of problematic narratives.


	26. brucenat + top ten favorite moments

anonymous said:  
Hello! Can I ask you for your top 10 favourite moments through all the movies? Brutasha, of course

Hi Anon! What a hard question. I was going to list out all the Brutasha moments I could think of but, actually, I’m going to just answer off the top of my head, since that’s more in the spirit of your question! Here we go:

10.) Natasha playing bodyguard. I wanted more! But what we got was great. The pratfall was cheesy, but I like that it wasn’t an accident — she knew exactly where he’d land. Also, something about the way Nat says, “Don’t turn green,” and Bruce says, “I won’t,” just slays me. 

9.) The scene on the hellicarrier when Natasha comes to get Bruce after realizing Loki’s plan. In this scene, we get confirmation that Natasha’s been flirting with Bruce strategically — “You didn’t come here because I bat my eyelashes at you.” — and that Bruce saw right through her, “Yes, and I’m not leaving because suddenly you get a little twitchy.” It places them on an even keel and makes me wish more of those ‘batting eyelashes’ moments had made it on screen.

8.) The lullaby. It’s beautifully rendered and played. The little smiles Nat gives are so joyful and the way Bruce comes out of the transformation is so oddly peaceful it just breaks my heart.

7.) The conversation on the quinjet. Even with everyone else within earshot, it’s so intimately staged. We get so much from that conversation — we find out that they’ve been working together on the lullaby, that it worked even though he hadn’t been expecting a Code Green, that  _Bruce trusts Natasha_  with the thing he hates most about himself, and, right there at the end, that Natasha is a teensy bit jealous of another women knowing her way around Bruce’s lab. But, even on silent, the way they look at each other is so great. 

6.) The transformation in Avengers. The looks they give each other are so fraught. It’s angsty perfection.

5.) Flirting at the bar scene. So much lightheartedness, but with tension! So much said and so much more left unspoken! I analyze it tons more [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117388101180/bar-scene). 

4.) “Stop lying to me!” When Bruce spooks Natasha, we get a whole new take on both their characters. Suddenly, the mild-manner doctor is a force to be reckoned with. Suddenly, the cool, capable spy is a human with real human fears. But then we get  _another_ layer, where Bruce is rueful and oddly sweet to her and Natasha decides against her every instinct to lower her weapon. They’re both exposed in that moment, and it’s thrilling.

3.) The farm scene. I know a lot of people have a lot of problems with it, but I think it’s just so dynamic and fraught with so much tension and longing. There was a different version filmed, but the way it exists in canon represents a huge step forward for these two characters trying to figure out how they can  _live_  and not just survive.

2.) “No, we could use a little worse,” and then that hesitant, genuine  _smile_  he gives her, gah. It’s the foundation of their trust and such important pieces to their arcs. Bruce, having been accepted by the member of the team who fears him most, can reveal his secret. Natasha, having accepted the one member of the team who most reminds her that this was never anything she was ever trained for, can jump back into battle with gusto. 

1.) The kiss. I’m mean, it has to be #1, doesn’t it? The way Bruce says, “I’ve got a compelling reason not to,” just fuels the whole, “I adore you,” line — which is so genuine — and then, wham, she’s laying one on him and he is 100% on board. 

Thanks for the question! Hit me back with yours, Anon, if you like!


	27. Bruce Banner + Continuity

**Anon: I'm a little confused with Bruce's character if I compare Avengers and Age of Ultron. I mean, he also loses his control in the first film, yet he returns to the team to fight with them. What are the exact differences** with **the events of AoU for not doing the same? It's also a surprise to me the way he introduces her the plan against Ultron (in Sokovia). He was wanting to take her away from the fight. I mean, he had to know that the team** were **counting** with **her? sorry for** me **shitty** english

This is a really intriguing question, Anon. I can definitely relate to the confusion, because Bruce is a super complex character and the circumstances do really look similar. I don’t know if I have the right answer, but I’ll give it a try.

In the first  _Avengers_ , Bruce has spent a year trying to manage the Hulk (as opposed to trying to get rid of it, the way he was doing before). He knows where the Hulk is needed, and he goes, because the alternative is too great.

In the second  _Avengers_ , he’s been working for years to make the Hulk safe to use in battle (as the nuclear option, Code Green). When Wanda comes on the scene, he’s even more devastated to see how easily the Other Guy is turned into a weapon. As an audience, we don’t see Banner waking up and seeing the destruction the Hulk caused, but we can imagine he absolutely lost it with grief. He’s confronted with what he considers the Real Hulk and he can’t handle it. He needs to run away from that to go where he’s not a threat (even though that place is nowhere in the world).  

There’s probably more to it, but I think it comes down to Johannesburg. All his good work was undone when his greatest fear came to life in front of him.

As for Natasha, I think he believes what he says, “You’ve done enough.” 

He listens to Cap’s speech and we cut to him in the jet and he’s  _livid_ , Bruce is  _angry_  and determined. He doesn’t want Natasha to have to prove to Ultron or anybody that she’s not a monster. He doesn’t want her to sacrifice her life, the way Tony and Steve are ready to. 

He knows he’ll survive anything, and he knows Natasha is a fight-to-the-last-breath type (she demonstrates this with, “Where else am I gonna get a view like this?”). He knows she’s a hero and people need her, but Bruce needs her, too. 

It’s a selfish but understandable choice. It’s not the right choice for Natasha, and she makes that very clear. But, we can definitely tell that she appreciates the thought. She  _adores_  him for wanting to save her, but she’ll only allow that kind of thing on her schedule. Job’s not finished. 

**anonymous said:**  
 **So The Incredible Hulk movie from 2008 is canon to our Mark Ruffalo's Bruce, right? I wonder if have you seen it? Until now (with news of General Ross will appear in Civil War) I hadn't raised to see it, because I felt weird to assume that is the same story from the Hulk presented in The Avengers, you know? xD And I don't like Edward Norton at all, tbh. So I'm curious about your** opinion : **3**

I did see the Incredible Hulk, although not until after I saw the Avengers (I then went back and watched Iron Man again and TIH, IM2, Thor, and Captain America, which I hadn’t seen. (Before I became hooked, The Avengers franchise just seemed like a dudebro fest to me at the time and wasn’t as cohesive thematically [billionaire robot guy, monster…Norse god? what?] as the X-Men franchise, which I loved). 

I always figured it was supposed to be canon because of the “last time I was in New York I kind of…broke Harlem” line. Edward Norton and Mark Ruffalo have different approaches to Bruce Banner, so I agree it takes some squinting to make the two characters work.

But I think there’s a  _lot_  to gain from TIH, character-wise, and it’s fun to imagine what Ruffalo would have been like in place of Norton. One of the best things, though, is that the tie-comics made it canon that Natasha was at Culver  _and_  Harlem, so I always try (best I can) to show that in my fanvids. 

Thanks for the question, Anon!


	28. brucenat + real feelings

**anonymous said:**  
 **I see that some of the opinions against HulkWidow** is **not believing that Natasha may have real feelings for Bruce. Which** surprise **me a lot, because to me is the opposite! I'm surprised and I can hardly see Bruce's feelings toward Natasha. Are there real and deep feelings or just a little crush? My** scepticism **maybe is that I really can see Nat at that point in her life, but not him. And I cannot get Betty Ross out of my head, really.**

I’m so glad you brought up Betty Ross. I am a huge fan of hers. Until I’m told otherwise, I headcanon that post-Avengers, she and Bruce have a sit-down where she calmly explains to him that he can blame the Hulk all he wants but his avoidance and self-loathing are the real reasons they’ve never gotten married and that, while she’ll always love him, she’s selling their house, leaving Culver, and getting her science on somewhere awesome in Europe. ‘Cause really? If he didn’t go see her after New York? Dick move, Banner. 

As for the idea that Natasha doesn’t have real feelings for Bruce, that’s entirely contradicted in pretty much every scene but mostly the bedroom scene at the farm. If she was trying to do her job and manage the Hulk, she would have been talking him into staying not offering to leave with him. Not a great plan.

Also, I agree with you that it seems pretty evident from CA:TWS that Nat is ready for something real in her life. The expression on her face when Bruce says, “in the future with me,” is so subtle and beautiful.

Now, Bruce’s feelings for Natasha are definitely less obvious but, I would argue, equally fun to talk about. 

I imagine that desirability went something like this: 

The good doctor knows himself well enough to know that he’s attracted to her from the get-go (the batting eyelashes thing), but he’d never in a million years would imagine she’d genuinely be attracted to him. 

He subsequently learns that she is and, probably just like when Betty Ross finally backed him in a corner and spelled out her love, was  _flabbergasted_ by it. Sweet little ball of fluff that he is. Now, in the meantime, he must have learned to respect and trust her to let her even try to lullaby him. And, for the lullaby to work, he must equate her subconsciously to somebody who safe and caring and worth de-Hulking out to be with (as described in this great post [x](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmaggiecohle.co.vu%2Fpost%2F118618091796%2Fmaidenpools-ok-so-my-fav-thing-about-the&t=M2FkOTBlMDQwMThmOTg0MTk3MWRmNDg3YWZhMjFhYjNjYWZmNjQ0MSxOVUx3bm9lcA%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F118646345625%2Fi-see-that-some-of-the-opinions-against-hulkwidow&m=1)). 

In an interview, Mark Ruffalo described their romance as “impossible but desirable” and that’s exactly it. Bruce  _wants_  to be with Natasha, but he doesn’t want to hurt her the way he hurt Betty and he doesn’t want to  _hurt himself_  that way again, either. The reason he lets it progress as far as he does is the fact that, unlike Betty (who never gave the Hulk the fear he deserves), Natasha knows what she’s getting into and can protect herself from it. 

Bruce is a shy, reserved person. His affection for Natasha comes out awkwardly and he represses so much, which is why we don’t get huge emotional outbursts from him (and, you know, the Hulk thing). But, because of the way the Hulk reacts to her, we know how much he’s come to care for her (the same way we know the Hulk appreciates Tony’s understanding). 

That was kinda ramble-y, but I hope that answered your question, Anon!


	29. Natasha + Bouncing back from mind control

**Now, that anon mentioned Widow's vision and how she's affected. Probably the most affected of all of them. I liked her 'open heart' conversation with Bruce, but I would have liked to see something more between that scene and when all meet with Fury. ? I feel that something is missing? She's totally misplaced, her reality is turned upside down... and then we see her ready for action. I don't know.**

Hmm, that’s a good point. And I agree — the more Nat scenes, the better! But I still see the fact that she bounced back so quickly making sense in three ways:

1.) Clint took the team to his farmhouse  _because_  Nat was affected. He knew being around his family would level her out, and he judged that worth the risk. 

2.) The bedroom scene gave her a renewed sense of purpose. Finish the job, and she could go try be a person (for a while, forever — at least it was her choice to try out). 

3.) Natasha Romanoff is nothing if not a compartmentalizer. Her stuff spilled out, she gathered it back up, and tucked it safely away  to play her favorite role of snarky Agent of Badass. 

But, again, you’re totally right. I would have been soooo happy if there was another scene or snippet of Nat before dinner with Fury.


	30. aou + timeline

 

anonymous said:  
I love how polite and charming you are, and your great metas helped me to clarify a lot of stuff: THANK YOU SO MUCH for that. It's so refreshing to see you as a defensor of Nat and BruceNat. Btw, I have a doubt about Bruce's timeline. Where can we place him between Avengers to AoU? He doesn't stay with Tony during all that time or he would have appeared in Iron Man 3 (beyond the cameo). Also, in TWS we can assume that he and Tony worked together in the Tower and collaborate with SHIELD?

[captainjanek](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmaggiecohle.co.vu%2Fpost%2F118818623886%2Fi-love-how-polite-and-charming-you-are-and-your&t=NTVmOWQxMmM1NTNkZGRkZWM5YjBmNzkyNjQyOTNmMWI1ZDVlYmNkYixLWnI4dEdWTA%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F118819868250%2Fi-love-how-polite-and-charming-you-are-and-your&m=1):

 

> [blueincandescence](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/118817629690/i-love-how-polite-and-charming-you-are-and-your):
> 
>  
>
>> [priscillajeanohare](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Ftatsuyamashiro.co.vu%2Fpost%2F118814494321%2Fi-love-how-polite-and-charming-you-are-and-your&t=MGY3YjlhZTNiOWVjMzI0M2JlNzdjZjMxYzVmNDY2ODc4YzJmYTkxMSxLWnI4dEdWTA%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F118819868250%2Fi-love-how-polite-and-charming-you-are-and-your&m=1):
>> 
>>  
>>
>>> ;A; Thank you, anon, I try to be civil! And charming…I’m blushing anon, thank you! I love writing meta because I enjoy picking things apart and analyzing them and figuring out how they work and why they make me feel the way I feel. I learn something about myself, the characters, the thematic content of the text, and sometimes even about narrative in general. It’s a rewarding pursuit.
>>> 
>>> Good question! So we don’t exactly know where Bruce is during that time.  ** _[This timeline](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiki-toki.com%2Ftimeline%2Fentry%2F5395%2FA-Marvel-Cinematic-Universe-Timeline&t=ZjNkZDkxMDUxNjc2NmMyODAyMGNlZTA3ZmExNWVlMTk3ZjNlODM2MSxLWnI4dEdWTA%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F118819868250%2Fi-love-how-polite-and-charming-you-are-and-your&m=1)_**  (which is not official, but is pretty accurate, I think?) goes up until the events of Iron Man 3, and this is what we know - the Avengers go their separate ways in 2011 after the Battle of New York and then there’s a 2-year gap. The events of The Winter Soldier and The Dark World occur right after each other during 2013, then Iron Man 3 takes place around the end of that year, with Tony telling Bruce his story in 2014. We know Bruce left with Tony in 2011 so they hung out for a while, though probably not all the time. What I’m curious about is where Bruce went when he wasn’t with Tony. Where could he go? It’s a question I don’t really know the answer to, but obviously they were working on stuff together and possibly apart as well, as Bruce’s creations end up getting mentioned in TWS. 
>>> 
>>> As for them collaborating with SHIELD, I’m not sure. Both of them mistrust governmental authority for a variety of reasons, and their relationship with Nick Fury is probably respectful but not entirely trustful (neither of them was on board with the Tesseract weapons in “Phase 2″ back in Avengers, after all). I imagine they collaborated with them in some ways, but possibly only begrudgingly and/or cautiously.
>>> 
>>> What do you all think?
>> 
>> *Adjusts canon-nerd glasses* This timeline is a little off, actually, which I think is why it was abandoned.  **[This one](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FTimeline&t=ZGNmZjhjNGYzZjlkOTIzZjQ5ODhkYWRiYzk4NThmMmI4OTBiZjc2ZCxLWnI4dEdWTA%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F118819868250%2Fi-love-how-polite-and-charming-you-are-and-your&m=1) ** is much better, though I have some quibbles. 
>> 
>> Agents of SHIELD confirms explicitly that _The Avengers_  takes place in 2012, so Fury’s Big Week (Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, and Thor) must take place in May-June 2011 (This doesn’t jibe with how people are dressed in New Mexico, but Tony’s birthday is May 29th). 
>> 
>> The Avengers takes place, then, in late June (Nat says Bruce has been “more than a year without an incident” and Iron Man 3 references “six months ago” as the Battle of New York). 
>> 
>> Iron Man 3 is Christmas 2013 and then Tony gets his surgery, so Bruce is hanging out with Tony at the Tower presumably in January.
>> 
>> Agents of SHIELD starts in September of 2013.
>> 
>> SHIELD implodes spring 2014.
>> 
>> No one puts a date on Age of Ultron, though I think Feige said in an interview it’s “a couple of months” after TWS. I’m choosing to ignore that because it would pretty much invalidate SHIELD as canon. So I see it like this — 
>> 
>> At the end of TWS, no one is worried about the Scepter because Von Strucker has already covered his tracks. That gives Steve and Sam some time (2-3 months) to start tracking Bucky and Natasha some time to go off the grid — (though they all get drawn into HYDRA plots separately, naturally). 
>> 
>> Then Hill, who’s working for Tony and Fury and has knowledge of Coulson, gets word of Baron Von Strucker and the fact that the Scepter the US Government seized from the Triskelion is a fake. 
>> 
>> That’s when Tony calls for Assemblage and they all start living in the Tower. Their ‘little raiding parties’ last until early spring 2015. (I like this because it works with the AoS timeline  _and_  it means maximum Avengers BFF shenanigans).
>> 
>> Does that ring true for anybody else?
> 
> Sounds good enough to me! Do you have any opinions on what Bruce’s whereabouts might have been?

OH BOY, DO I! I have really detailed thoughts I’m working into a fanfic outline (which I will bother you with later), but in general I see: 

  * Bruce leaving after the Avengers go their separate ways. Stark Tower needs major renovations, and Tony moves back to his Malibu house. Fury (via Nat) gives Bruce the all-clear to move about the world, so he takes the opportunity.
  * In those seven months, Bruce’s commitment to loneliness is tested, as well as SHIELD’s ability to keep “other interested parties” away from him (cue infrequent visits from Nat). He eventually decides to move back to New York, at Tony’s invitation.
  * On his way, he goes to Willowdale and he and Betty get real closure. Betty gives him one last haircut (something she does for him in TIH).
  * Bruce moves in with Tony for a time, with sporadic leaves of absence to keep his cool. He also has his Cabin safehouse, where he goes to work on controlling the Hulk.
  * Nat has her apartment in DC and places stashed all over the world, but she does stay at Avengers Tower sometimes and sees Bruce. 
  * When SHIELD collapses, Bruce isn’t with Tony in the Tower — Tony’s face pops up alone. So, he’s out there somewhere, but I imagine Tony immediately sends a jet to pick him up, since he’ll be a HYDRA target. 
  * I see Natasha dealing with a bunch of grudge matches now that she doesn’t have SHIELD at her back/HYDRA keeping them at bay, then, once she’s dealt with that, making the Tower home base.



Another reason I like the year-ish timespan between TWS and AOU is that in all the interviews, Scarlett talks about how they feel comfortable and have finally been living somewhere for a long time, and that allows time for some permanence. 

 

 

Everyone one tumblr is mad at Joss for blah, blah, blah and I’m over here like, “75 YEARS AGO????”

Captain America: Born July 4th, 1918. 

US involvement in World War II: 1942-1945 (roughly).

  * In  _The Avengers —_ “You’ve been asleep for almost 70 years.” (2012, checks out)
  * In  _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_ — “I’m 95 not dead.” (2014, checks out)
  * In  _The Avengers: Age of Ultron_  — “The guy who wanted that went into the ice 75 years ago.” (2019/2020, does not check out) 



2015-1945 = 70. 

  



	31. Natasha in AOU v. Natasha in TWS

SUBTITLED: THE RUSSOS ARE NOT YOUR SAVIORS

Okay. So I see a couple arguments against Natasha’s characterization over and over again. One is: “How did she go from ‘love is for children’ to ‘I adore you’???” The answer is character development and the key is  _Captain America: The Winter Solider._  I talk about that at length here ([x](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117869098770/natasha-character-development)).

The argument that  _really_  leaves me confused is the one that says Natasha in  _TWS_  is a feminist ideal and the Natasha in  _AoU_  is The Worst. It just completely  _baffles_ me.  **Because Natasha in _TWS_ in is a hell of a lot closer to Natasha in  _AoU_ than she is in  _The Avengers_.**

I personally think Natasha is great and multidimensional the way she’s portrayed in  _TWS._ But you can EASILY make the same reductive, bullshit feminine = antifeminist arguments about  _TWS_.

  * Love is for children?  **Let’s spend the entire movie finding Cap a date because if anyone cares about dates it’s the Lady Avenger, amirite???**
  * Sick of seeing female characters reduced to their sexuality?  **Here comes Black Widow driving up in a sexy car making flirty faces at a man she’s never met. Why? To make Cap look cool in front of his new bro.**
  * Don’t want Black Widow turned into a love interest?  **We’ll cut the original plot that had her jumping in bed with Cap, okay, but here’s a bonus fanservice kiss that contributes nothing to the plot or her character development. *giggles***
  * Hate that Natasha is captured and/or used to give Bruce a hero moment (laugh) when he blasts open her cage?  **How about knocked unconscious and carried out of the flames by Cap like the picture of a damsel in goddamn distress.**
  * Worried that Natasha needs her feelings validated by Bruce in the farm bedroom scene?  **Let’s have Natasha, who yesterday said she couldn’t care less if people trusted her as long as that kept her alive, seek validation from a man the very next morning. The very next morning, people.**
  * Concerned that Natasha’s pain is being used as fodder for someone else’s noble quest? **Look no further than Natasha dumping all her secrets onto the internet to demonstrate that, once again, Captain America was right about everything.**
  * Oh, are you worried that Natasha is walking away from the mission?  **At the end of _TWS_  she walks away from Fury and Cap to go take a goddamn vacation, with HYDRA full on the loose. **



Oh, what’s that? You don’t think my characterization of those events are  _fair?_  No shit!

All that said. I think Natasha’s character in  _The Winter Soldier_  is great. I also think her character in  _Age of Ultron_ is great. 

Do I think her character in either one was perfect? No. I don’t want perfect characters. 

Do I think her character in either one was perfect from a representation standpoint? No. Tropes for female characters are thorny and triggering in a lot of different ways.

But.  **What I am saying is that the argument that Natasha’s character is completely unproblematic in _TWS_  and the Russos will save her from the evil Joss is completely ridiculous.**

The Love is for Children Natasha? Yeah. Joss wrote her. I am not a Joss apologist. I liked  _Buffy_ , but I also didn’t a lot, too, especially as I got older. He is flawed, but so is everyone else. Particularly other men — **I don’t hear anyone calling for female writers to save Black Widow from antifeminism. No. I hear calls for two more men to save her.**


	32. Natasha + Development

anonymous said:  
In short sentences, how would you describe Natasha Romanoff's development in each of her four MCU films?

This is a great question!

1\. Company woman. She’s 100% SHIELD and has full knowledge of the Avengers Initiative (she does Tony’s profile), but isn’t too impressed by the lineup (she fails him).

2\. Company woman turned Avenger. Strike Team Delta, aka Nat and Clint, supposed to be Avengers, I don’t think. They were meant to be field handlers, but they stepped up in a big way. Nat isn’t a soldier, but something about Loki and Coulson’s death and Phase 2 made her want to be more than a SHIELD agent. She saw the opportunity and took it.

3\. After the Avengers, she slides right back into being a SHIELD agent, but this time she’s Cap’s point person, which means more Fighting the Good Fight than master assassin-ing. She likes the new normal, and she seems content with her personal and professional life. She’s still “comfortable with everything” and she’s still all, “who do you want me to be?” but she feels like she’s wiping out her red. Then HYDRA hits and everything she thought she knows was destroyed. She decides to “find a new cover.”

4\. The cover she finds is no cover at all. She’s an Avenger, and she’s in a good place. She has a home. She’s doing the right thing. And, what’s more, she has an escape — that window of opportunity to get out of there and find a life.

5\. By Civil War, she’s all in. She’s an Avenger. There’s always going to part of her that wants to run, but the job’s not finished.

Oh, God. You asked for short sentences. Sorry, Anon! I’m hopeless. 


	33. Betty Ross’s TIH Ending

postcards–from–faraway has a really great meta up that mentions Betty Ross and laments that she’s just left hanging at the end of  _The Incredible Hulk_.

But! Fun fact about  _The Incredible Hulk_  — the deleted scenes are the best parts. Not only does everything make way more sense  _and_  General Ross’s righthand man is a fully developed, kickass lady, Betty gets hers in the end.

(Skip to 27:31 for the scene)

Here, Betty gets a call from her boyfriend, whom she calmly confronts about selling Bruce out earlier in the film. She then forgives him, because she’s too moral and understanding and awesome to hold a grudge. 

Betty: I forgive you. But I’m not coming home yet.

Leonard: Where are you going?

Betty: I have no idea. But I’ll let you know when I do, I promise. Goodbye, Leonard.

Betty, who is a well-balanced individual who does not have issues with self-loathing, is brave enough to say goodbye and considerate enough to keep the people who love her informed of her whereabouts. 

As much as I love Bruce Banner, he does not at this juncture deserve Betty Ross.

And Betty Ross is not going to sit around and wait for him. She’s going to take some time to find herself, and she’s going to move on with her life, probably with Leonard, who will wait for her, something in another deleted scene she asks Bruce why he didn’t do.

So, yeah,  _The Incredible Hulk_  is definitely flawed but could have been a much better story and had a much better conclusion for Betty Ross had they left in the really compelling character moments shown in the deleted scenes. 

Now let’s all imagine Betty Ross getting wine drunk with Natasha Romanoff and serenely talking shit about Bruce Banner’s runaway tendencies. 


	34. Bruce + Ultron, Nat Gets It

Everyone ignores Banner’s part in creating Ultron, except Natasha. It’s oddly sweet that she’s the only one who remembers to give Bruce his due share of blame alongside Tony.

  * The most obvious is, during the farm scene, when Natasha says, “When you  _two_ programed him to protect the world, you amazingly failed.”


  * Natasha also immediately recognizes Bruce’s part in creating Ultron during the afterparty battle. Ultron says, “You want to protect the world, but you don’t want it to change.” Before he’s even done speaking, Natasha gives Bruce this incredulous look and Bruce avoids her gaze as if in confirmation of her suspicion. Cash money says he’s said those  _exact_  words to her at some point. Bruce is an altruistic curmudgeon — he’ll do anything to save people, but he doesn’t trust them much (“The only people who’d be threatening the planet would be people.”) The idea of Bruce going off on rants about the human race to Natasha is adorable and awesome, and it also shows just how well she knows him.



I say the fact that she remembers to place blame on Bruce is oddly sweet because it recognizes his contributions that don’t involve the Other Guy. 

In the comics, Bruce is forever lamenting the shadow of the Hulk he lives in:

> _Tony Stark and Reed Richards use their genius to save the world every other week. That’s how they’ll be remembered in history. Meanwhile, I – I who, forgive me, have just as much to contribute – will be lucky if my tombstone doesn’t simply say “Hulk Smash.” —_ **Bruce Banner**

On the team, Bruce is Tony’s Science Bro and the Hulk — in both cases, the more forgettable part of the equation. But not for Natasha. Bruce blames himself for a lot of things, but if he’s going to be a monster the mad scientist version is preferable because he actively controls it. Natasha gets that, so she doesn’t let him off the hook for his part in creating Ultron. 

And tough love is exactly what Bruce needs.


	35. brucenat + in-canon reactions: Laura Barton

I did one of these with [Nick Fury](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117952271095/brucenat-in-canon-reactions-nick-fury) awhile back, so I thought I’d continue, because I just gotta say — the Natasha and Laura friendship gives me life.

I’m an unabashed seeker-outer of spoilers, so I knew going in that Laura and the kids were a thing, and I was, frankly, worried about how she would be portrayed.  **Too often The Wife character is the Nag, the one who tries to keep the hero from hero-ing in order to demonstrate that This Man’s Sacrifice is Important. Laura? Isn’t like that.**

Laura is supportive. Laura, that  _“little minx,”_  knows the business. I’m not entirely clear on Clint’s background in the MCU, but I can guess the early circus backstory can be integrated, along with a stint in the military/CIA. Laura marries Clint, has children with Clint knowing what his job is going to entail. Clint wants to build her a workspace, she does her own farming, she raises her children, and you just know she has a lot of healthy relationships with people in town, even as she has to lie to them. The woman loves her life — imperfections and all — and that’s blessing to see on screen.

 **Even better is seeing that Laura is Natasha’s family.**  Laura treats Natasha like a sister-in-law in the best possible sense. Nat’s an aunt and godmother to the kids and, legitimately, Laura’s friend. Laura notices that Nat is shaken, and she worries about her. Laura knows instantly that Clint is going to take it upon himself to go after the ones who shook her up. 

 **Laura recognizes that Natasha has feelings for Bruce Banner on the spot when not even “Hawkeye” saw it after months.** Her little jab about that is just adorable. And the, “I’ll explain it to you when you’re older,” line bridges the carefree slightly messy frat boy Clint from the comics with his more mature family man version portrayed here. 

 **Clearly, it comes as a surprise to her. She asks Clint, _“What about Nat and Dr. Banner? How long has that been going on?”_** Natasha isn’t calling up her best girlfriend to dish on her new crush. She keeps it to herself, with the possible exception of a directive for Steve (and, hey, she did her best to wingman him). 

But I don’t think Laura is surprised that Nat didn’t tell her about Banner.  **In fact, it makes all kinds of sense that Nat would be inclined to keep her feelings for Bruce a secret.**

**After all, who’re Natasha’s best and only role models when it comes to successful, happy relationships? Clint and Laura Barton, who keep each other secret to keep each other safe.**

****Natasha would see the romance in that, I think.


	36. Bruce Banner + The Monster

I’ll say one thing for tagged brucenat hate, it always makes me think about my darlings that much more deeply.

Right now in the tag there’s a rant about how  _Natasha says she adores Bruce for being a pacifist but she isn’t there to see him threaten Wanda, so that must mean she doesn’t really know him and he’s a terrible person how dare he._  

Uh-huh. Let’s dissect.

> **Bruce:**  You got a lousy taste in men, kid.
> 
> **Natasha:**  He’s not so bad. Well, he has a temper. Deep down he’s all fluff. Fact is, he’s not like anybody I’ve ever known. All my friends are fighters. And here comes this guy who spends his life avoiding the fight because he knows he’ll win.

This snippet of conversation showcases many things, including Bruce’s trademark self-deprecation, but nowhere does it say that Natasha thinks Bruce is a pure vision of heavenly light. The very first thing she acknowledges is his inner demon — that deep-seated rage that has been eating away at him nearly his whole life and, for almost a decade, has manifested itself as a literal monster.

**But underneath that trauma, Natasha sees “fluff” — someone truly gentle who feels gut-wrenching remorse for the part of himself that is monstrous.**

Not to pile on the Shrek/Fiona jokes, but there’s that nice little onion analogy here. Roughly: • Bruce’s crispy outer layer is his PhD in snark, • underneath, the adorakable science nerd, • which belies the mad scientist who’ll break all the rules, • fueled by jealousy and insecurity, • that derives from his “dark passenger” (shoutout to captainjanek ) of trauma and rage, • that protects, the very scared, very young child within who was abused by his father, who watched his mother murdered, • all encasing the gentle soul Bruce Banner might have been had he grown up in peace.

And what does Bruce Banner want to do with all that history of violence and self-hatred and failed ambition? 

**What he doesn’t want to do is exactly what he feels like doing _always —_  smash — and that’s what Natasha is drawn to. **

Bruce Banner wants to be good. He wants to be a wanderer, someone who helps where he can and leaves when he can’t. He’ll put himself in exile, he’ll avoid the fight because  _he can’t lose, except to himself_. 

In Bruce, Natasha sees someone who is constantly fighting against his monster to let himself be that _huge dork_ he is inside  _—_ a struggle Natasha “‘beep beep’ emojis/Children’s War participant” Romanoff knows a little something about. 

Now. The second piece of the argument says that all of that falls apart when Bruce threatens Wanda.

> **Wanda:**  I know you’re angry.
> 
> **Bruce:**  Oh, we’re way past that. I could choke the life out of you and never change a shade.

This is a disturbing statement. It’s meant to be disturbing — Bruce is disturbed. There’s a capacity for violence inside of him that, if he embraced, would be truly monstrous. 

That’s another thing Natasha and Bruce have in common. Underneath their warmth, her passion and his rage, is something cold-blooded. Natasha can be who you want her to be. Bruce can walk away from the people he loves. 

What’s more, circumstances have rendered inside of them the ability to turn off their remorse and  _be the monster_. 

**But that’s not what they want for themselves.**

Bruce says he  _could_  choke the life out of Wanda. Bruce grabs her in a chokehold and says, ‘Try me.’ He warns her what he’s capable of, even though she already knows. She’s been in his head.

And that’s just it. The  _reason_  Bruce Banner admits in front of Tony and Steve just how at one with his monster he has the capacity of being.

Let’s all keep in mind that, yes, Wanda is girl half his age, but she is not defenseless and she is not an innocent. I think Wanda deserves redemption just as much as anyone else in the MCU, but **let’s not forget that she — someone whose parents died as civilian casualties to a weapon of war — unleashed the Hulk on a city full of people with the explicit aim for him to cause as much collateral death and destruction of civilians as possible.** Yes, she was abused, but she chose to be an abuser. 

And think about what Johannesburg means for Bruce. He had a home, he had a Team, he was open for “running with it.” The lullaby, more than anything, demonstrates that he felt safe for the first time in god knows how long. And Wanda Maximoff stripped that from him in the most personally violating way possible.

Like I said, Wanda deserves redemption as much as anybody, but don’t patronize her. She can dish it out, she can take it.

So, imagine Natasha was there to hear that speech. Do you really think she’d be horrified by Bruce? No. She’d be horrified  _for_  him. Because, in one more way, the world has dropped another dark layer on top of his humanity. 


	37. The Avengers Academy Scene in AoU

Yesterday, [gobeahero](http://tmblr.co/mSkZi2bJFY9R6_jHLJfmdeg), [dehaanradcliffe](http://tmblr.co/mazxC8F_yGY7CwBUzre9-_A), and [crazyfanoffandom](http://crazyfanoffandom.tumblr.com/) posted some A+ commentary on the Avengers Academy scene between Fury and Nat, which made me want to do a line-reading interpretation, ‘cause this is an awesome brucenat scene with so much double meaning, exposition, and potential headcanon/backstory mixed in. Here it goes:

**Fury: “One of our tech boys flagged this. Splashed down in the Banda Sea.”**

  * This is still a new operation, of which Fury is an integral part but is not the leader. This is a much less hierarchical structure, demonstrated by the fact that Nat is approached by her former director instead of asked to come to his office.
  * A search has been called for Bruce, and Natasha has made it clear that any flags are meant to be brought to her attention immediately.
  * The fact that Fury brings this one himself automatically indicates it’s the best lead yet.
  * This is likely where the writers intended the Quinjet to actually end up, since TPTB wanted to make sure that no one thought Planet Hulk was happening. But there’s lots of wiggle room if minds change between now and Bruce’s next appearance. 



**Fury: “Could be the Quinjet. But with Stark’s stealth tech we still can’t track the damn thing.”**

**Nat: “Right.”**

  * Ouch. Natasha thinks of this right off the bat. She tells the Big Guy, “We can’t track you in stealth mode.” She’s already worried about the thing that three months later is giving her pain.
  * She definitely looks at that screen long enough to memorize all the coordinates. I bet she does that every time. I bet she has them written down or geo-mapped, more likely, with her affinity for computers.
  * The terse smile and the fact that she can’t look Fury in the eye is all kinds of sad resignation. 



_Lengthy so rest behind the cut._

**Fury: “Probably jumped out and swam to Fiji. He’ll send a postcard.”**

  * Fury, in his brusque father figure way, is comforting Nat. ‘Bruce is alive. He’s somewhere beautiful. He’s thinking of you.’
  * It’s also another underscore that this is likely where Bruce actually is, since the King of Spies is relatively sure of it.



**Nat: “Wish you were here.”**

  * Oh, boy. Right in the feels. It’s so wistful, but it’s also said with a smile. What could have been, maybe, in happier AUs (can’t wait for those to start rolling out!). 
  * Also — as someone else brought up in another discussion (I tried to find it but failed, so identify yourself in the comments if you want!) — this is her imagining what would be written on said postcard. She imagines Bruce misses her, too. She feels resentment — and I know she’s gotta, a little bit, against her will, ‘cause she’s human — but she understands that Bruce isn’t running from her.



**Nat: “You sent me to recruit him way back when. Did you know then what was gonna happen?”**

  * For me, I see this question not as a weakness, but I see it as Nat’s natural curiosity coming out. 
  * I think when she was tasked with recruiting Bruce, her spy-like mind was immediately running down reasons why Fury chose her. I think, in all these years, she never asked. She would want to figure it out herself.
  * Then, after she realizes that she and Bruce are so much alike, before she falls in love with him and again after, she wonders if Fury saw it coming. 
  * ‘What was gonna happen’ is intentionally vague. It could speak to romance. It could speak to her position as the Hulk Whisperer. Both, likely, since they’re so intertwined.



**Fury: “You never know. You hope for the best.**

  * Fury is acknowledging that he did have designs for Bruce and Natasha. He sent her for a reason, and he hoped that reason would keep them both ‘at their best,’ in terms of the mission. 
  * That could be cynical, but Fury has always demonstrated care in how he treats his agents. (”The worst part was, you didn’t,” he tells Stark when he shares his vision of the team dying without him.) Fury knows the weight of the one who stays safe while sending others out into danger.
  * So, if a deeper connection between Bruce and Natasha is truly going to be beneficial to the mission, it has to be real. He hoped they’d come to an understanding that would allow them to exorcise their demons (her fear of monsters and magic; his distrust of authority and himself) and play to both of their strengths.



**Fury: “Then make do with what you get. I got a great team.”**

  * The first part is some fatherly advice, if I’ve ever heard it. He’s telling Nat to appreciate the good times, as best she can, and put whatever she learned about herself from this experience to good use.
  * The second part is talking about the Avengers, yes, but I think it’s also talking about Bruce and Natasha as a team. Team Lullaby and all the myriad of team-ups the two could have had in in the interim (I’m plotting fic as we speak…)



**Nat: “Nothin’ lasts forever.”**

  * Here, Natasha  _is_  being cynical. I think it’s deserved. After all, she’s Russian and lord knows she must be drawn to it, too, since Bruce is a little fluffy raincloud. On the corner of cynical and flippant is where she lives. It’s her amor. Let her wear it until Brucenat Returns,  _where it’ll all just crumble spectacularly_ and we’ll get optimistic-in-love Nat back. (Fingers crossed!)
  * I don’t, though, think she’s crossing Bruce off her list here. She’s not hardening her heart, just keeping it safe.
  * The Avengers is the subtext here, too. Double-speak. It’s a shorthand goodbye to the old guard (next scene) before bringing the new.



**Fury: “Trouble, Ms. Romanoff. No matter who wins or loses, trouble still comes ’round.”**

  * The ‘Ms. Romanoff’ is another piece of exposition — this is not SHIELD 2, or else Nat’d be an agent again. Avengers Academy is something new.
  * Fury is the King of Spies ‘cause he also rules the Land of the Cynics (Nat tends to bond with certain type of people, for sure, with Steve as the notable exception, but it did take two years for it to be really real). He’s saying, existentially, that there’s never an end to the fight. Job’s never finished,  _her_  job will never be finished, even if Bruce told her that it was in the most romantic declaration Natasha has probably ever heard.
  * But Fury is also being optimistic here. He’ll get his team back, and she’ll get Bruce back — because, like [gobeahero](http://tmblr.co/mSkZi2bJFY9R6_jHLJfmdeg) has said, this is Fury calling back to the end of  _The Avengers_. (“They’ll come back … Because we’ll need them to.”). It’s a comfort.
  * Still, we leave Natasha looking pensive, because even if it’s true that Bruce will come when he’s needed, what Fury says before is equally true — the next fight might not be the Last Fight. Nat and Bruce will have to make their choices all over again. 



Whew, those are my thoughts! Lots of words for just a small scene, but what can I say? brucenat speaks to me.

ETA: Thanks to [teashadephoenix](http://tmblr.co/mWo-FbzQVZ-I8JmmvuSXNrg) for linking me to [the thread](http://teashadephoenix.tumblr.com/post/120081039082/hulkwidownet-ilovebrucebanner-it-makes-me) that talks about what Natasha imagines written on the postcard. Credit to the lovely mods at [hulkwidownet](http://tmblr.co/mAcOmEOFXg7qOOZZU0KY-CQ)!


	38. brucenat + top ten likes

**anonymous said:**  
 **hello, fellow shipper!** i'm **sending this ask to the** hulkwidow **blogs** i **adore most because** i'm **really curious and** i **want our tags full of** optimist **and pretty things! so... like your top 10 of things you like most about** brucenat **ship/relation/connection? :)**

What a sweet thing to do, Anon; I love it! 

**10\. Bruce and Natasha are, separately, my two favorite MCU characters.** I was so ecstatic when the AoU trailer debuted with the hand touch and immediately jumped aboard this ship because Bruce and Natasha, to me, are the most compelling characters in the MCU. The Kolkata scene has always been one of my favorites of the Avengers because it’s such a great character piece for both of them. To find out that my babies were going to be canon was just a sheer delight.

**9\. Bruce and Natasha are smokin’ hot together.**  For starters, I can’t get over how adorable and compelling Mark Ruffalo is, not to mention how true it is that Scarlett Johansson is the embodiment of physical perfection. Their chemistry together, to me, is really reminiscent of Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn — the redhead who can play it mischievous or aloof but always has that undercurrent of wit to match the dark-haired cynic with a romantic streak a mile-wide.

**8\. Bruce and Natasha are both this strange mixture of adorable and terrifying.** These two characters both have moments of absolute fluffiness — Bruce with his science dork-outs and Natasha with her emoticon flirty-ness — that are all the more tragic when juxtaposed with the deep cynicism they share.

**7. **The relationship between Bruce and Natasha is not easy.**  **I’m invested more in their relationship because I can see the struggle, the downsides, the bad timing, the self-hate, and I can also see how much potential for growth the choice to love each other has already given them in AoU, never mind the future.

**6\. Bruce and Natasha are both wanderers.** Their characters are nomads at heart, never really having a home. For Bruce to disappear so completely off the military’s radar screen, he must have been a competent traveler even before the accident. Natasha, of course, can figure out how to look in place in any context, even if that’s by looking out of place. I can imagine their endless, gushing conversations about where to find the best teas and which places have been the most ruined by tourists. Running, for them, is toward adventure as much as it is away from their problems.

**5\. Bruce and Natasha are not ‘meant to be.’** Meaning they aren’t destined by comics canon and they aren’t presented as inevitable. Their relationship is a product of their choices, and I think that’s infinitely more romantic and powerful than the whole ‘soulmate’ notion, which might be a pretty concept because it’s ineffable, but it’s also lame and boring, in my opinion.

**4\. Bruce and Natasha are ‘monstrous’ in remarkably similar ways.**  Both of them have done truly horrific things to good and bad people; they understand the guilt and self-hate that comes with those actions. They also are products of something that they cannot control; they understand that this does not relieve them of that guilt. Their monstrous natures derive from childhood trauma; yet, neither of them lived up to their supervillian potential. Who else is going to understand that?

**3.** **The relationship between Bruce and Natasha offers so much fodder for fic and meta.**  While I obviously want more, the in medias res of their relationship we got in AoU just means that there’s that more much to fill in with fic and meta. Backstory, reunions, AUs — we’ve got plenty to work with as shippers!

**2\. Bruce and Natasha are both heroes on paths of atonement.**  Natasha has the red in her ledger and Bruce has the big, green Other Guy. Both of them are heroes in their own rights, but the fact that they are reluctant, that can’t see it for themselves makes the fact that they see it in each other all the more romantic.

**1\. Bruce and Natasha deserve happiness and recognize that through each other.** Despite all their very real guilt and self-denial, the relationship between them is such a powerful draw that they are able — even if just for a moment — to imagine themselves free and happy. It’s tragic and beautiful, and I hope to hell it’s end game.


	39. what do you think about the new Peter Parker cast?

** anonymous said: **   
**what do you think about the new Peter Parker cast?**

So, I’ll definitely admit to being rankled when Spider-Man was announced to be joining the MCU. The Spider-Man movies were never my thing (I’ve only seen part of the first one of the new reboot), and it pushed back  _Captain Marvel_ , which  _really displeased me._

I was also a Miles Morales…not really hopeful, as I didn’t think they’d actually do it, but at least it would be different. We know Peter Parker’s story, and Aunt May is the best part. 

_Plus_ , it was a kick in the teeth to the whole “no time for a Black Widow movie” blah. blah, blah. Marvel wants Spider-Man because Spider-Man sells toys (not that they’ve even  _tried_  with Black Widow).

But none of that whining is anything new.

The one thing I like is that they’re playing Spider-Man young.  _X-Men_  grabbed me when I was a kid because it had teenage characters to identify with who had just as much to do and say as the adult characters. That’s something that the MCU has been missing out on. The Maximoffs are/were (RIP) a step in that direction, but I think they’re meant to be 20-24, so not quite in that high school sweet spot for kid identification. Spidey fits the bill.

(As a relevant aside, is anyone interested in buying my soul in exchange for a phase four Ms Marvel movie with Kamala Khan? ‘Cause I’m willing to sell.) 

Anyway, all that said, the casting of Tom Holland as Peter Parker seems fine to me. He’s an unknown, the director is an unknown, and that’s not a negative for me. Plus, there’s the Peter Parquor joke going around because of [this video](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Do0i4M6JbZvM&t=ZGY2NmQwMGM2MDY0ODBkY2QyYzZmZTdmOGQ5Zjg5MjU1ZWM4M2U3OSxlSnFrUzBaSQ%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F122296133175%2Fwhat-do-you-think-about-the-new-peter-parker-cast&m=1), which is pretty impressive.

I’m sure he’ll be a solid choice. And I’m sure Spider-Man will be a solid addition to the MCU that will be a meaningful semi-game changer because of his age. I’m sure I’ll enjoy him in  _Civil War_ and beyond, even if my subconscious is going to be seething that his presence is taking screen time from [insert character here, especially Black Widow]. 

Thanks for the ask, Anon!


	40. brucenat + fave moments

**anonymous said:**  
 **Hulkwidowanon strikes again, fellow! :) two small questions. 1) what was the key, at what point, you started to ship them? 2) your three** favourites **scenes/moments (one BruceNat, one Nat, one Bruce).**

Hello, hello! Ooh, is this another fandom-wide ask? Thanks for the question, and it’ll be great to read everyone else’s answers!

**1) Shipping Origins:**  I officially started shipping brucenat (brutasha way back when…in 2014) when the first  _AoU_ trailer dropped and my brain screamed, “Canon! Canon! Your faves are going CANON!” But I liked their dynamic since the first time I saw  _The Avengers_. The Kolkata scene is just so tightly packed with brilliant chemistry and mystery and humor and angst. I didn’t participate in the MCU fandom, except for reading a few fics, mainly Bruce and Natasha separately, but I did stumble on a few memorable brucenat fics along the way ([this](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Farchiveofourown.org%2Fworks%2F395777&t=ZmMyMDIwZWM4NjgwMmVmMTA0NDVhNDY4MDUyYjhhNzllYzYxMTY3ZiwzS1FjaVdieg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F122015485440%2Fhulkwidowanon-strikes-again-fellow-two-small&m=1) is the first one I ever read) and watched some vids ([this](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCFGDtW8oed4&t=MTRjMjEwODYxM2ViYmYyZTNjY2U5YjgwMGQwNWQ4MWVjOTRjNjRlZiwzS1FjaVdieg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F122015485440%2Fhulkwidowanon-strikes-again-fellow-two-small&m=1) one, a lot). But I mostly considered it crack. I am the doubting Thomas of the brucenat fandom, for sure.

**2) Favorite Bruce Banner Moment _(_** ** _The Avengers)_ :** When Bruce stands in front of the group and tells them all what it means to get low. He’s raw and vulnerable but also defiant in his chosen path to redemption. He is someone who has so little to live for and yet he won’t ever die. That’s the definition of tragic. His suicide attempt is an act of immense sadness, guilt, but also love — he doesn’t want to hurt anyone. He doesn’t want to be a hurter. He doesn’t want to be his father, he never did — even if it always felt inevitable. And Bruce keeps looking over at Natasha and she’s got this still, penetrating stare on — I think that’s the moment she truly sees him as human and good and worth more than what he can do for SHIELD. He’s under the influence of the Mind Gem more than the rest of them, but he doesn’t go petty. He goes deep. 

**3) Favorite Natasha Romanoff Moment _(Age of Ultron)_ :**I know everyone hates it and thinks it’s antifeminist, but I wholeheartedly disagree — the more I watch the Farm/Bedroom Scene, the more I’m in awe of how strong Natasha is. She’s a handful of hours off from a truly horrific experience. She lost control of her mind and flashed back to a time when she lost control of her body. Her entire sense of agency has been compromised. She wonders how she could ever believe she was more than the monster the Red Room made her to be. Does she break? Does she get angry? No. She hugs Barton’s kids. She flirts with Bruce. She very plainly and emotionally lays out her issues and says, ‘They don’t define me. The fact that I am a killer with more red in my ledger than I can ever wipe out doesn’t matter  _if I don’t want it to_. I can choose something else. I chose you, and if you don’t like it, I’ll  _persuade you_.’ She’s not talking about slipping into the woods. She’s talking about finishing the job and then going to try something entirely new, something she wants with someone she wants. That’s  _brave._

[And in the end, she extends that bravery, allowing herself to  _have her dream of being an Avenger_ , “Go be a hero,” and  _have her dream of starting new,_ “Job’s finished. Turn that bird around,” at once. Seriously. She’s a revelation in  _AoU._ Fuck the haters.]

**4) Favorite Bruce/Natasha Moment:** I’m going to cheat here a little, because  _it’s so hard_.

**_(_** ** _The Avengers)_ : **Kolkata. Hands down, Kolkata. There are so many layers there as they’re both feeling each other out. I  _will_ write a long-ass meta about it one of these days, so I’ll just say Kolkata.

**_(Age of Ultron):_** THERE ARE SO MANY  _but_  I’m going to go with the scene where Bruce gets Natasha out of her prision cell. Have we ever seen Bruce that purposeful? His posture, his tone. He knows what he wants and he’s doing something about it. And there’s Natasha, worried about the job, as always, but then hit with three words better than I love you — “You’ve done plenty” — and the awe on her face is every bit justification for her later, “I adore you.” Ugh. THESE TWO WERE ON THE SAME PAGE FOR HALF A SECOND AND IT WAS GLORIOUS. 

That was fun! Thanks hulkwidowanon! (That would be a great tumblr handle, by the way!)


	41. brucenat + parallels in avengers and aou

anonymous said:  
I'm just thinking... brutasha parallels: first meeting in Kolkata vs. first lullaby we see - when bruce hulks out and attacks natasha in the helicarrer vs. natasha pushes him to hulk out & their failed last lullaby. It's interesting to compare their scenes in the two films.

So many great parallels between TA and AOU, Anon! What a great topic. You’ve mentioned the biggest two. I’ll add on other parallels/things I noticed that I can think of!  
  
 **1\. Natasha’s reaction to being put on Hulk duty (Moscow v. Sokovia)**  
  
In TA, when Natasha is assigned to the “Big Guy,” we get the foreboding “Bozhe moi” and she turns back toward the camera with a look of trepidation. In AOU, she accepts it without comment and turns back toward the camera with a look that’s much more at ease. She even uses “Big Guy” to alert the Hulk to her presence.  
  
 **2\. Transformation between identities (Kolkata v. Lullaby)**  
  
In TA, we have the Black Widow (on the job) approaching Bruce Banner. In the end, Bruce Banner forces the Black Widow to revert to her true self, Natasha Romanoff (human being) by evoking a nightmare. In AOU, we have Natasha Romanoff approaching the Hulk and coaxing him into reverting into his true self, Bruce Banner (ball of fluff) by evoking a lullaby.   
  
 **3\. The role of trust and mistrust/fear and acceptance (Kolkata v. Lullaby)**  
  
Kolkata presents the audience with two characters who have never interacted and are deeply mistrustful of each other. Bruce mistrusts and fears those who would cage him. Natasha mistrusts and fears things she cannot control. They dance around each other, never touching (re: the phone slide). In AOU, there is hesitancy on Natasha’s part and on the part of the Hulk (Mark kills it with his body language), but not fear. There’s acceptance and trust and  _touch._  
  
 **4\. The role of trust and mistrust/dishonest and honesty (Kolkata v. Lullaby/Quinjet)**  
  
However much they fear each other, there’s this undercurrent of honesty between them in the Kolkata scene (“I did” and “I don’t every time get what I want”). That honesty is played cynically in TA but played with such  _innocence_ in AOU that it kills me dead. The lullaby works because the Hulk — who is not a genius but who  _does_ have the ability to recognize manipulation and sincerity the way a child who has suffered abuse does —  believes that puny Banner is safe with her. If it felt cynical or fake in any way, it would only make the Hulk angrier. And on the Quinjet this idea is underscored during their conversation. Here, Bruce and Natasha demonstrate the same straight-forward honesty on display in Kolkata, but this time they’re using that honesty to  _reassure and to heal each other_. It’s such a difference — Banner in TA: “STOP LYING TO ME.” Banner in AOU: “It’s not you I don’t trust.” KILL ME DEAD.  
  
 **5\. All the glorious eye contact (On the Helicarrier v. In the Lab with Dr. Cho)**  
  
In TA, Natasha keeps her eyes trained on Bruce in every scene they’re in together. This is a manifestation of her fear and a necessity of her mission. Bruce looks up to see her staring at him a bunch of times and he knows why. Contrast that to the lab scene. These two dorks can’t keep their eyes off each other. Little smirks, little smiles.  _Long lingering looks_. So damn cute.   
  
 **6\. The use of flirtation (Lab Hellicarrier v. At the Bar)**  
  
My fondest wish is for heretofore unknown deleted scenes from TA to start popping up all over the web and, like, half of them to involve Natasha flirting with Bruce. Because we  _know_  that she does because of the dialogue — “You didn’t come here because I bat my eyelashes at you.” In TA, Natasha flirts with Bruce for the mission and Bruce sees right through that — “Yes, and I’m not leaving because suddenly you get a little twitchy.” In AOU,  _Bruce_  initiates the flirting with Natasha.  _Bruce_  starts up the adorkable role play.  _Bruce_ gets flustered because he  _knows_ this is Natasha flirting with him. Maybe she’s doing it seriously (ohgodohgodwhatdoido) or for fun (“Natasha, she likes to flirt…” blushesuntilkingdomcome) but it’s her. It’s not the Black Widow.  _And he seeks it out._  
  
 **7\. The confessional scenes (Suicide Reveal v. Sterilization Reveal)**  
  
In the ‘top three scenes’ discussion going around, I chose the scene where Bruce talks about his suicide attempt and the scene where Natasha talks about her sterilization in the Red Room as my favorite character moments for each. I explain why I love those scenes in [that post](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/122015485440/hulkwidowanon-strikes-again-fellow-two-small), but here I want to highlight how much they parallel each other. In both cases, the listener never breaks eye contact. Never interjects. Just  _listens_. These are scenes featuring two people  _really and truly hearing each other._ In both cases, their estimation of each other undergoes a change after the scenes. Natasha is more understanding. Bruce is more willing.   
  
 **8\. The juxtaposition between the Nat/Hulk scenes (Helicarrier Transformation v. First and Final Lullabies)**  
  
I really liked that the first scene we got in AOU was a Hulk/Natasha scene rather than a Bruce/Natasha scene. In TA, Bruce and Natasha get their closure, but Hulk and Natasha are left at that moment where the Hulk has raised his arm and is looking down at Natasha, who is utterly in fear. There’s The Moment, of course, where the Hulk’s eyes widen and we think he recognizes that he  _doesn’t want to smash_ , but we never see how that moment will pan out because Thor interrupts. In AOU, for the first lullaby and the final, failed lullaby, Nat raises her arm in the exact opposite way, to help instead of hurt. Once again, there could have been a whole different outcome — we can see that the Hulk wants to come back for the Lullaby — but they are interrupted, this time by Ultron (dick).   
  
 **9\. Natasha’s characterization of the Hulk (Battle of New York v. Sokovia)**  
  
This needs no explanation — from, “We could use a little worse” to “GO BE A HERO.” Adlkjfaldff!!!! And I’m dead. I’m a ghost. This is my ghost typing. Someone leave flowers on my grave.  
  
 **10\. The goodbye scenes (Central Park v. The Quinjet)**  
  
In TA, we get the end of an arc and the fulfillment of a promise — “I swear on my life, I will get you out of this, you will walk away.” They are comfortable with each other. They smile. They’ve accepted each other, and it’s a good place for them to leave one another. In AOU, we get an abrupt severing. We get angst, we get pain and poetry. Their arc is unfinished — there are promises left unfulfilled (“So we just disappear?”). There are needs and wants that haven’t been satisfied — which gives me confidence that BRUCENAT WILL RIDE AGAIN!  
  
Thanks for the awesome meta prompt, Anon! You rock. 


	42. Clint Barton + AoU

anonymous said:  
I really, really, really enjoy reading your thoughts about BruceNaT, but now I'm very curious about your opinion of Hawkeye. Do you liked his role in Age of Ultron? I find it pretty interesting the conection that it creates between him and the Maximoff twins. Thoughts? :D

Well, thank you, Anon! I’m flattered!

My opinion of characters is default positive — I like to assume the best, and we didn’t get much with Hawkeye in TA, of course. I was hoping for more in CA:TWS, but we got next to nada (oblique parking space reference + necklace; otherwise, he might have died in between movies and we never would have known). 

The Hawkeye we get in AOU really sold me on the character, though! He gets a  _lot_  to do. He’s funny, he’s professional, he’s caring — and he’s what none of the other character are — _well-rounded and well-adjusted_. I love that. And I love Laura Barton so, so much, as I discuss in this [post](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/119611605960/brucenat-in-canon-reactions-laura-barton). If I had room in my brain for another ship, I’d definitely hold it down for Clint/Laura.

I love that all the other Avengers give him crap (”How is he?” “He’s still Barton.” “That’s terrible” / “Pretending to need this guy really brings the team together,”) but, as that post going around demonstrates, he’s more effective than anybody. PLUS, he has what everyone wants (hell, what  _I_ want) — work/life balance. 

I love that they foreshadowed his Big Secret with the “I don’t have a girlfriend” / “Who was that?” “Girlfriend” bit. 

I LOVE how protective he is of Natasha, while still being completely aware of her amazingness (”Three, two, one…Give him hell”).

And, as you point out, I LOVE HIS ARC WITH THE MAXIMOFFS. Like Steve, Clint doesn’t vilify the twins (“kids, punks, really”) — but he doesn’t trust them much, either, because trust is earned. He sets out to “teach them a lesson,” but he allows that lesson to be contingent on circumstances. 

His speech to Wanda is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. His view on life is so pragmatic, and you have to admire that.

> **Clint:** Doesn’t matter what you did, or what you were. If you go out there, you fight, and you fight to kill. Stay in here, you’re good, I’ll send your brother to come find you. But if you step out that door, you are an Avenger.

Now this is totally my own headcanon, but notice that he says “fight to kill.” They’re fighting robots. AI, yeah, but Clint doesn’t strike me as a “robots are people” kind of guy. 

Thematically, I know why that wording is used. Ultron says the Avengers are monsters because they are all killers. Clint (and the film) is saying, well, sometimes heroes have to kill to do their job. That’s one of the sacrifices people make when they become heroes.

But I headcanon that the use of the world “fight to kill” makes sense in another way — I think the first part of that speech is, word for word, what he said to Natasha when he recruited her for SHIELD. 

For me, it makes the most sense that Natasha would have earned her way into SHIELD, rather than Clint just taking pity (his trust is earned, as stated above). I think Natasha stepped out that door and became a SHIELD agent, and I think the most heroic part of Clint Barton is that he will  _always make a different call_. 

<3


	43. brucenat + child imagery

anonymous said:  
brutasha thing. I just see a post of a fellow shipper in our tags where it notices that the last scene together between them in Age of Ultron take place in a playground. How do you interpret the scenery? I just thought Calcutta's scene and the cradle moment of Bruce. It seems that it could be interpreted like a reference to their incapacity to have children, but I'm actually think that it's a reference to the childhood they never had? Both of them have a very traumatic past from an early age.

I think you’re spot-on, Anon! 

Children are a huge theme in this film. There’s the creation/creator Frankenstein aspect, the nuclear family as the ultimate good trope, and the idea of innocence/loss of innocence. 

Having Natasha and Bruce meet on a playground was  _definitely_  a thematic choice. 

It highlights the innocence of their connection — their trust, the “lullaby” angle — while underscoring the dark aspects of their childhoods (movie audiences know Natasha’s now, but Bruce’s hasn’t been explored yet, though comics fans/those who saw the 2003 Hulk can rough out an idea). 

It also complements the scene with Barton and the missing kid. Here we have a father risking his life for a child because  _heroes protect the innocent_  and what’s more innocent than a child? And what’s a better backdrop for the loss of innocence than a trashed playground? 

Definitely poignant; great topic Anon!

(As an aside, now I have that Madonna song from  _A League of Their Own_ stuck in my head and I don’t foresee it going away anytime soon. ♪ “This used to be my playground…used to be…” ♪ haha).

ETA: I FORGOT! So, Natasha finds Hulk in the playground, throwing things and looking generally irritated. This could be because there’s no more robots to smash in the vicinity, but I think it’s a manifestation of Bruce’s frustration that  _he can’t have this_ because  _he doesn’t every time get what he wants_. In TA, the cradle push is a nostalgic desire. In AOU, it’s an active desire or an active desire for the choice to have that kind of future, and Hulk expresses Bruce’s frustration when he finds himself in a playground.


	44. brucenat + criticism

anonymous said:  
Hi! This anon would just like to thank you for your brunecenat posts. :'> It's so tiresome to see so many people in the fandom hating on that ship just because it doesn't necessarily follow the comic canon (for example, where are all the posts complaining about how Bucky should have been a teenager in CATFA at? I guess everyone's too busy shipping buckysteve.) Also, it's equally tiresome to see so many people still worshipping the Russos when they definitely had worse plans for Natasha.

Thank  _you,_ Anon, for reading them!

And great points all around! I agree, it is  _so tiresome_  to have to read so much hate all the time, but there are a bunch of people creating a bunch of adorable brucenat fanart that we can enjoy! 

I don’t know if you read it, but I did a [post](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/119026848295/natasha-in-aou-v-natasha-in-tws#tumblr_notes) about how you could just as easily pick apart CA:TWS and find the exact same antifeminist angles that everyone is freaking out over in AOU. In that post, I was basically like, ‘The Russos aren’t perfect, but I enjoyed Natasha in CA:TWS, faults aside; you interpret a character how you want, why not go positive where you can?’

Criticism is great and essential. But. 

**There’s too much criticism out there that’s ungenerous and unthinking.**

**There’s too much criticism that’s mean-spirited and straight up bullying.** (Which…gross.)

****There’s too much criticism out there that conflates opinion**  **(I prefer [insert ship here] and the brucenat ship isn’t to my liking) ****with moral outrage**  **(brucenat is abusive, how  _dare anyone ship it!)_. 

**There’s too much criticism out there that is spurious because the author can’t tell canon from headcanon**. (The necklace in CA:TWS is cute, and at the time I totally thought it was a nice wink to Cl*ntasha, too, but stans treat it like a goddamn wedding contract signed in blood. Here’s a headcanon: Lila got it from her daddy and gave it to Natasha to protect her. Or, you know, Clint give it to her in friendship. The romantic angle was  _always in your head, people_. It sucks to get your hopes up and not get the thing you want, but facts are facts and the fact is a molehill does not make a mountain. Plus, I don’t care if Scarlett Johansson said it was a love necklace — which she never did — the movie is canon and the movie  _never once even said his name_ ). 

**There’s also an insane amount of group-think where _nobody_  even stops to question the righteous fury train.** (I’m thinking of the Ant-Man fanart that someone may well have posted to prove a point about how easily misled Tumblr is; I’m also thinking of the idiotic  _Mark Ruffalo sunk our ship_ and _Joss Whedon hates Cl*ntasha shippers!_ rants. Hint: none of this is personal.)

…And that was a lot of me bitching. Sorry about that! I am one, sometimes, as are we all. But I  _try_  to be fair and generous and positive. Because the character who I might think is the absolute lamest is someone’s absolute favorite. Nobody needs to be the asshole who stomps down sandcastles.

I assume the last part of your message, Anon, refers to the first draft of CA:TWS that had Natasha and Steve jumping into bed together? I agree that would have been a bad move — not for Natasha’s character but for Steve’s. Natasha “that’s all right, you make something up” Romanoff would be perfectly in-character having a one-night stand, and could walk away BFFs with Steve, no harm, no foul. Steve “I’m waiting for the right partner” Rogers having a one-night stand would require a  _lot_ of justification and angst (I’m a Captain America is a virgin truther, myself).

All that hypocritical negativity I just threw out there aside (sowwy),  _ **let’s reblog the hell out of some awesome fics/vids/mixes/meta/art/gifs/t-shirts/etc. and be our positive, brucenat-loving selves! :D**_


	45. Character Development in AoU

anonymous said:  
What could you say about the individual evolution and development of each Avenger in AoU? You know, one of the things I really appreciate of Whedon's work with Avengers is the herculean task, not only to bring together all these characters, just the fact of give them own developments, you know? I really like how they confront their fears and the monster thing in AoU, I really like their roles in it. The parallels between them, but then each one have their own demons and things. So cool.

This is a really interesting ask, Anon! There’s, really, so much to talk about with each character, so I’m just going to focus a little on the “monster” aspect.

> **Steve:** “Right, what kind of  _monster_  would let a German scientist experiment on them to protect their country.”

Steve has an old-fashioned notion about monsters. To him, ‘monster’ is a negative word full stop. Here, he evokes ‘monster’ in the sense of evil and in the sense of a strange creation. 

He considers himself a monster in the strange creation sense. His “You know, I really miss the days when the weirdest thing science ever created was me” comment speaks to the alienation he must have felt when he first took the serum, and we all know how alienated he feels because of his age (which is why Tony inviting the veterans to the party was actually so sweet). 

He’s also alienated from the happy ending that the rest of the Avengers want (even if they can’t have it). At first, this very much bothers him (”As if you could live without a war”), but he learns to accept it (I’m going to headcanon that the 75 years comment is not a continuity mistake, but Steve conflating when he took the serum with when he went into the ice as the point of origin for when his identity as a soldier became more important than anything else). 

Steve can’t deny he’s a monster in the sense of alienation, but what he rejects is the conflation of monster-as-abnormal and monster-as-evil. He rejects it when he defends the Maximoffs. He proposes it as something to reject again during his inspiring speech.

> **Steve:** Ultron thinks we’re monsters. That we’re what’s wrong with the world. This isn’t just about beating him. It’s about whether he’s right.

Here, Steve isn’t talking about the Avengers being strange creations; Ultron considers strange creations more evolved. Ultron thinks they’re monsters because the Avengers, by protecting the world, are stopping it from changing. He’s one of those “the world needs to be purged so we can start over and do this right” kind of villains. Steve is ultimately saying, “Is it worth saving people?” which is a huge question to be asking in a summer blockbuster. 

This is gonna get long, so more under the cut:

I can’t remember if  **Thor**  ever says the word ‘monster,’ but he does have an interesting place in the narrative. Thor, and his hammer as an extension of himself, is the arbiter of what is worthy. 

Tony asks his permission to look at the scepter. Thor is the first one to really lay into Tony for meddling, just when the audience needs to see that happen. Ultron never really lays into Thor — he says, “I think you’re confusing peace with quiet,” but he never attacks Thor for hypocrisy the way he does Tony and Steve. Thor is a warrior, but he has learned from his past mistake of treating war as sport. Thor is a leader, but he’s humble enough to turn down the thone and take orders. He’s also not of our society, so he cannot be blamed for Terran failings. His alienness, ironically, makes him less of a monster in the eyes of the narrative. 

Where the narrative suggests that Thor is monster is in the brute strength and power that he has. Heimdall pretty much says it right out in the dream sequence, and it’s underscored when Thor steps on the Legos. 

Thor is also the gatekeeper between the Earth he’s sworn to protect and the rest of the intergalactic  weirdness out there. That’s one of the reasons Thor’s arc feels so separate from the Ultron storyline; his place in the narrative is bigger than an Earthbound fight. It’s his job to tell the characters and the audience that they have not even begun to see monstrous yet. 

Because of both of his roles (arbiter of worthiness and gatekeeper), Thor’s place in creating Vision is what makes the audience believe in Vision even before the hammer lift. For Thor, monsters are a threat whether or not they are evil, but they can also be allies. He’s the perfect balance between Steven and Tony. 

> **Tony:** We’re mad scientists. We’re  _monsters_ , buddy. We gotta own it.

Oh, Tony. He definitely has a modern idea of what a monster is. He reclaims the word. In his estimation, monsters are not evil but misunderstood. In this scene, Tony is telling Bruce that the world (i.e., the rest of the team) won’t understand their choice to create the Vision, but that’s their lot in life as mad scientists. They have to be the ones who make the unpopular decisions, because they have lives to save. 

It’s like a Manhattan Project question of morality. Is it VJ Day, celebration in the streets? Or is it, “I have become death, destroyer of worlds”? Well, it’s both, and that’s what mad scientists have to live with. 

In Tony’s view, a true monster is a person who would be paralyzed by that choice. Monsters, to him, fail to act. It plays back to his original arc in  _Iron Man —_ he wakes up to the evils of the world and he  _does something about it_. It also plays out in his dream sequence — “Why didn’t you do more?” Steve asks him. 

Again, in a blockbuster movie, we the age-old storytelling question. Somewhere along the way, we got into this idea that villains act and heroes react. Steve is on the side of reaction — “Every time somebody tries to start a war before it’s begun people die. Every time.” — and Tony is on the side of proaction — “It’s a hoot that you don’t get why we need this.” Both sides have very valid arguments, and that’s why  _Civil War_ is going to be so damn interesting. 

Whew, that was a lot. From here on out, I’m just going to touch on the monstrous angles.

> **Vision:**  I may be a monster. I don’t think I’d know if I were one.

Vision! What an amazing character. He’s incredibly moral and so generous to human failings. He is Frankenstein’s monster to a T, but he is accepted by the group instead of being alienated from it. 

He represents the hope that a lot of us have — We don’t need to let the world burn and start over in order to have peace and justice. We can build something new. We can reverse climate change with new technology. We can hold ourselves accountable with new systems of government. The Vision — JARVIS, the Mind Gem, a bunch of mad scientists and a little magic — is a version of the world that evolves in the gentlest way possible, while acknowledging that no way forward is deathless literally (as in Ultron) and metaphorically (as in the New Avengers). 

**Wanda**  and  **Pietro**  have the redemption of monsters storyline in the movie. They have a very sympathetic backstory, tried to change the system through protest, and ultimately let themselves be turned into monsters in order to do what they think is necessary — destroy the Avengers and all the hypocrisy they stand for.

Pietro stands in for, essentially, the reformed terrorist. He sees the good in some private/governmental programs (”This is SHIELD? This is not so bad.”), because they are run by people who want to save lives instead of bureaucracy that want to exploit them. His heroic sacrifice shows that monsters can surprise us in  _good_ ways (”You didn’t see that coming.”)

Wanda gets the guilt angle. She feels responsible for the whole chain of events, starting with letting Tony take the scepter. She’s the human race, basically. We created this mess. Are we going to let that guilt consume us, or are we going to walk out that door and make it right?

> **Natasha (to Bruce):**  You still think you’re the only  _monster_  on the team?

MY BABIES. While the rest of the team is more caught up in the esoteric philosophy of what makes a monster, Natasha and Bruce are down in the trenches. They  _are_  monsters. They feel monstrous to their very cores, and that feeling drives their actions and is reflected in their choices. They’re further along on the Maximoffs’ journey. 

They doubt themselves. “The world just saw the Hulk. The real Hulk for the first time.” “I dreamed that I was an Avenger. That I was more than the assassin they made me.” 

They understand that good intentions and even good actions do not always add up to a good outcome. How do you live with that? How do you live with yourself? 

Ugh, there’s too much. I’ll do a brucenat reading of the monster angle another time. Thanks for the question, Anon! AoU may be pithy and entirely too fast, but if you slow it down there’s SO MUCH packed in there!


	46. brucenat + character dynamics and wishes for the future

anonymous said:  
HulkWidowAnon third round :) 1) Your favourite dynamics with another character (2 Nat, 2 Bruce). 2) The crucial one: BruceNat future. Your bet/wish for them. How do you think that would be their reunion? Your desires/hopes/expectations for them.

Hey HulkWidowAnon! These are so great, thanks for asking them!

**Character Dynamics**

Everyone has said such great things about the Bruce/Tony/Steve and Natasha/Clint/Steve — which are the essential ones, no doubt — so I’m going to mix it up a little with some secondary relationships that give us a lot to headcanon with and that I hope get explored more.

_**Natasha:** _

_Natasha & Laura: _Female friendships are  _not_  explored enough in the MCU. We have Jane and Darcy and we have the tiniest bit of Pepper and Natasha (Natalie, really), but mostly (in the films) the girls have to make friends with the few guys. We don’t get a lot of Natasha and Laura (KILL HER IN CIVIL WAR AND I WILL CUT YOU, MARVEL), but what we do get indicates a total integration into each other’s lives. I love how much the farmhouse  _is_  a safe house for Natasha. Her character is all about crafting identities and figuring out who she is in spite of/because of her history of violence. I can imagine the integration into the Bartons’ lives was  _hugely impactful and interesting_  for her as a person. (I talk about Laura more [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/119611605960/brucenat-in-canon-reactions-laura-barton)). 

_Natasha & Tony: _I re-watched  _Iron Man 2_  last month, and Natasha is definitely a prototype in this movie, but we do get a lot of Natasha’s character in the way they bounce off each other (not the way Tony hoped to, either). Tony, with his unprofessionalism, brings out Natasha’s professionalism. Tony with his distrust of spies and lies hits a nerve with Natasha, who’s using what he so despises to atone. She gets back at him with her assessment (SO MUCH SHADE) and, I imagine, hacking JARVIS (Coulson just sauntered into the penthouse and  _you know Natasha wasn’t just getting coffee in IM2)._ She and Tony rib each other gently, which has got to be a fun place for Bruce to be in since these are his two lifelines to the Avengers. I like to headcanon a little tug of war for Bruce’s time and attention going on under the surface between the two, heh. (More [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/116745270400/natasha-as-defined-through-not-by-men).)

_**Bruce:** _

_Bruce & Betty: _I know it can be difficult to reconcile the change in casting, but  _TIH_  is still very much part of the canon (Marvel’s been doing an admirable job dropping easter eggs, and Ross coming back for  _CA:CW_ will help a lot. I’d love to see Liv Tyler back in a cameo, too.) Betty and Bruce have been on and off together for almost twenty years (re: the Harvard comment), and their love and trust runs deep. Betty, I imagine, had a  _huge influence_  on Bruce’s ability to deal with his proto-Hulk (the rage and sadness that formed growing up in an abusive household). I imagine Bruce never felt good enough for Betty, and I imagine he made a lot of mistakes with her along the way (which is why they aren’t married by  _TIH_ ; I headcanon Culver was their second chance to settle down and he blew it testing the serum on himself). One of the most heartbreaking lines in  _TIH_  is when General Ross says, “He’s alone. He wants to be alone.” But then Natasha drags him out of Kolkata and introduces him to this found family…It’s not the Clint’s Farmhouse ending that he could have had with Betty, but all his rage and mad science and mistakes —  _they fit there, the way they never fit before._ Having had that juxtaposition is essential for his character. (More [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/116180652755/what-i-dont-like-about-the-whole-bruce-natasha).)

_Bruce & Fury:_ In the tie-in comics (which I view as canon but not perfectly so; like, the storyline happened but it’s being presented in a much less complex way), Fury goes to find Bruce on the run. He concocts this little drama to see if Bruce is the kind of guy to use his powers to assert his dominance over other people, but finds that he’s just a guy on the run from himself. He then concludes  _that Bruce Banner is not a threat_. Bruce won’t know about this until years later, but it’s absolutely crucial to his ability to outrun the military (I can absolutely see SHIELD running interference while pretending to help) and, of course, his inclusion into the Avengers. “Nick Fury seems to trust you” is the catalyst for every change that happens in Bruce’s life. It’s wonderful little moment when Bruce says, “Thanks for asking nicely” to Fury, and I wish those two got more moments together. Plus, Nick is a low-key Hulk/Widow shipper from way back so that’s not nothing. (More [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117952271095/brucenat-in-canon-reactions-nick-fury).)

This got super long (as per usual), so I’ll answer the future part in a future post! But two words: END GAME.


	47. brucenat is not forced

anonymous said:  
I see posts against bruce/nat using the comments that others Avengers made about them (the 'show not tell' thing). And it's not a bad point... without the context and the fact that it's been a long time since we saw them. I mean, of course others talk about them, because they're being obvious! and all of them have a close team/family relationship. How aren't they going to talk about something so good? It's like when Nat spent the whole TWS trying to find a date to Steve, right? It's natural.

I totally agree with you, Anon! 

I think the “brucenat is forced” argument is one that could use some parsing out. I think it has three components. Warning: there’s some cynicism to be found here.

3) Fandom loves a tease. There’s something about piecing together a ’ship that really grabs people’s interest (shout out to all those awesome people who held it down for brutasha when it was considered crack). Canon ‘ships and, at times, het ships in general, for whatever reason, don’t get as much love (I say that as a spoyta and batcat ’shipper). It really is too bad we didn’t get a brucenat nod in CA:TWS to ease people into to the idea, because I think more people would’ve have jumped on ’ship if they got to feel clever about figuring it out. 

2) Their storyline — which has  _massive interesting backstory_  and  _a huge amount of depth_  — does go by quickly. AOU, though I enjoy it more each time I watch it, is too fast. I know we aren’t getting one, but it needs a director’s cut that’s, seriously, 30-40 minutes longer. The quickness means that if you blink, you’ll miss the subtext. Their arcs are not spelled out for the audience, so if you don’t take some time to think about their character motivations it might not resonate. I can actually see how people would be like, “Huh, meh. That was a thing that happened.” 

1) A lot of people spent a lot of time ’shipping Nat with other people. Most of the hate stems from this fact. A lot of people are disappointed, so not only do they not want to look into the subtext, they want to find a lot of reasons to make the ship evil or gross or what have you. Some of them are misguided, some are hilarious (like the one in the tag the other day who  _felt personally attacked_ because they saw brucenat on their dash. I hope to hell that was a joke; otherwise, how do you function in society?)

So, I understand the “forced” argument — I just happen to disagree.

To me, brucenat  _doesn’t_  seem forced. I would have loved more “show”; Joss is a TV writer, so he does rely heavily on dialogue as his primary storytelling device. But the “tell” part isn’t  _that_  overpowering, and it’s actually pretty well done, as far as these things go. 

We get four comments on brucenat, and they all do something other than “force” brucenat. They’re character moments from a lot of different angles.

**1) Steve.** Like you said, Anon, Nat spends all of CA:TWS trying to find him a date. If he recognizes that she has a crush, he wouldn’t be a bro if he didn’t wingman her. So, there you go, Nat and Steve are still tight. Even more importantly, his comment sets the audience up for (Queen) Peggy Carter’s later appearance. Steve is telling us that he supports brucenat, but he’s also telling us about his own regrets.

**2) Laura and Clint.** I mean, obviously Joss really wanted that “Hawkeye” punchline in there, for starters. And Clint leans on his ‘big brother’ vibe here; my brothers are equally unimpressed when I bring someone new around. Plus, we realize that brucenat has been  _slowly burning_  for a while now, which is hot (and feeds into my secret relationship headcanon  _no one can take from me_ ). Also, Laura needs a little bit of character fleshing out, so with one line we know that she’s observant, great at people, and knows Nat very well. Oh,  _and s_ he mentions it for ten seconds  _and then it gets brushed off_. Because it’s not the center of this movie or this scene. It’s two seconds. 

3)  **Tony.** The zucchini line. That’s it. A little joke from the guy who spits them out constantly. It suggests to us that Tony  _was_  a bit worried that Bruce and Nat were going to book. It also tells us that Bruce and Nat are now a Known Entity. 

4)  **Nick.**  I already did a whole breakdown of the final Fury/Nat scene [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/120566694090/the-avengers-academy-scene), so I won’t go into much detail. But we need this scene to round out storyline and to show a  _lot_ about how the Avengers Academy is going to work. 

So, basically, I don’t mind at all the “tell” part because they are examples of efficient writing. I’m not saying it’s  _the best writing in the history of writing_  or anything, but it’s not  _bad_  by any stretch.

I also don’t mind these “tell” moments, because we  _do_ get a build-up. 

  * **Lullaby:**  That was an oddly intimate moment between colleagues. 
  * **Quinjet:** Better than ever? They’ve been work on this awhile. Look at those smiles. Oh, Nat’s arc word got evoked. Is that a touch of jealousy at the mention of Dr. Cho?
  * **Bruce’s Lab:** Is…Nat watching Bruce looking all fine in jeans? Wait, is she digging his nerdishness? And, whoa, that’s a sizzling look she just threw at him. 
  * **The Party** : Bruce is a dork who cannot handle dangling things and no one talks to him, but he watches Nat be social. 
  * **The Bar:**  Um, what is this banter? Oh, my  _god_ , she does like him, and here’s why! He’s absolutely flustered. Ah! And Steve sees it, too!
  * **The Hammer Lift:** They are all about each other. No one else is in that room.
  * **Ultron:**  NAT IS HIS BODYGUARD. AMAZING.



And so on. What I’m saying is that there’s ebb and flow to this relationship and plenty of shows, and the tells aren’t superfluous to the plot/character development of the film.

Is there room for improvement? Hell yes! Bring on the fic/meta! But what we  _do_  get is substantial and interesting and, as a ‘shipper, I am satisfied by AOU and excited for the future.


	48. Bruce Banner + Betty Ross

anonymous said:  
"I have a zillion headcanons about Bruce’s feelings for Betty in relation to his feelings for Natasha" Tell us, teeeell uuuuuuuus (: No, really, your metas around Betty are truly interesting.

UM, THANK YOU, ANON, FOR THIS QUESTION. Because can I just talk to y’all about Betty Ross for a minute? Headcanons, I mean. I’ll get to brucenat, I promise.

Under the cut because long and gushy.

  * Betty Ross is (in my mind) 5 years younger than Bruce. (Liv Tyler is actually much younger than Mark Ruffalo/Edward Norton, but in TIH they seem to be played as peers-ish). 
  * They meet at Harvard, where Bruce (25) is getting his second PhD in biochemistry and go-getter Betty (20) is shooting up the ranks in her master’s program. 
  * Betty has been dating Air Force pilot Glenn Talbot basically since the womb, as he’s the son General Ross never had.
  * A year into their friendship, Betty realizes that she’s in love with Bruce. Bruce has been secretly in love with her from pretty much day one, as he’s that kind of guy, but he says nothing, as he’s also that kind of guy. But when Betty is honest about her feelings — which are conflicted, because she does love Glenn —  _Bruce_  has to be the one to act on his feelings.
  * To General Ross’s great dismay, Betty breaks up with Glenn to be with Bruce. Things are wonderful and science-y and adorable, for a time.
  * But Bruce has never been good at happiness, and when he hits some speed bumps in his career (Bruce is no stranger to the less than ethical self-experimental side of things), he lets everything good in his life unravel. He, with his bad behavior and father issues, essentially forces Betty to break up with him.
  * Bruce goes off to study medicine in various places around the world. Betty eventually gets back together with Glenn. 
  * Bruce returns just in time for her wedding. He tries to break it up, but Betty isn’t having it. They part as friends but heartbroken. Despite pressure from her father and Glenn, Betty puts off starting a family to build a career she loves.
  * A few years later, Betty and Glenn are separated, having realized that General Ross’s will just sort of rolled over them. Glenn marries the woman he’s always loved, Carla, and immediately has a son, George (as seen on AoS). 
  * Betty had always kept in touch with Bruce, even when Bruce was not good about keeping in touch with her. She persuades him to take a position at Culver University and join the Bio-force Tech Enhancement Program, not telling him about the separation at first. 
  * Once they rekindle their friendship, they also rekindle their romance. They both see it as a fresh start and mean to do things right and build a life together. Bruce, having let go some of his father issues, is in a place where he actually wants to be a father. He proposes.
  * But funding cuts to the program lead to them both to a point of desperation. Bruce is able to convince Betty and General Ross to let him self-experiment and we all know what happens next.



The key take-aways are that: 

  1. Betty loves Bruce  _a lot_ , but he’s not the only man she’s ever loved. She loved Glenn Talbot (as per the comics), just as she loved Dr. Samson. 
  2. Bruce is a self-sabotager from way back. He’s on his second chance with Betty when the accident happens — which he already thinks is a miracle — so he’s much more inclined to give her up. He never really thought he deserved her to begin with.



So what does this have to do with Natasha? I imagine his experience with Betty taught him a lot about himself and his heart, in positive and negative ways.

  * By giving up Betty, Bruce has given up on love. It’s not for him. He’s not even considering it.
  * That being said, he is more vulnerable to love (in the sense of wanting it) because he finally had allowed himself to imagine a scenario where he got what he wanted (a family, stability) before  _his choice_  to self-experiment wiped it all away.
  * Bruce is very self-aware and he knows an attraction when he sees one. But he still half-thinks he should never have interfered in Betty’s life, so he wouldn’t dream of interfering in Natasha’s. He’ll nurse his attraction in that deprecating way he has.
  * He’s also well-aware of his vices (jealousy, insecurity, pushing people away, running away) so when he finds himself feeling these negative emotions when it comes to Natasha, he can recognize them and control them.



Essentially, it took 45-ish years, but Bruce has achieved a level of emotional maturity  _because_  of what he had with Betty. Bruce would be an entirely different man if he had gone through life without meeting someone like Betty who could get through his self-imposed isolation and his self-loathing and make him  _desire_  happiness for himself. 

Betty is Bruce’s Clint, and Tony is his Steve. Betty is important, and I can’t wait to write a brucenat fic I have in the can where Betty kicks all kinds of ass (academically speaking).


	49. bruce + nat + wanda's manipuation

anonymous said:  
So great to read you and magicaldestiny! Such an interesting theme. I would love to read you on terms of differences about Natasha and Bruce handling with Wanda's manipulation, because it's a certainly key to both arcs and their decisions in the film. Could it be reduced to a problem of complete loss of confidence?

Hi, Anon, thanks for the question! Looking specifically at the differences between Natasha and Bruce’s reactions to Wanda’s manipulation is a super interesting topic!

The most interesting part of Wanda’s visions is that they root out exactly what each character has been tentatively dealing with. Thor has found a place for himself on Midgard, but he fears for Asgard. Steve has a purpose on the Avengers, but he fears not having/wanting a personal life. Tony feels proactive as an Avenger, but he fears not doing enough. Natasha and Bruce are both tentatively reaching for personal happiness, but they both fear themselves/that they’re not good enough.

In  **Natasha’s**  case, her vision goes back to a time when she is brainwashed into believing she has no place in the world — aka will never have something in her life that means more to her than the mission. Her reaction to is to go catatonic. Everyone is inside their head during the shot of the Quinjet, but Natasha has tuned out the rest of the world completely. For someone who has such a history of mental manipulation from the Red Room, I would imagine such a violation would be especially hard to reconcile. She needs more time to come back to herself because Natasha has so many selves.

IMO, what pushes Clint Barton to take the Avengers to his farm is Natasha. He knows she’s hurting, and he knows she needs an anchor — and that’s his family. Natasha comes back to herself minutes after entering the house. She’s still glassy-eyed as Clint helps her into the farmhouse, but as soon as Lila calls her “Auntie Nat,” she comes back to her softest, most loving self.

She holds onto that self and lets it show in the bedroom scene, where she shares her vulnerabilities with Bruce. Here, she also shows her strength. Whatever doubts she has about herself (her ability to be a hero), she isn’t going to let the Red Room take away her ability to connect with other people. She can’t have the simple life that Clint has, but she’s willing to try to find happiness outside of the mission and that’s big.

In  **Bruce’s**  case, he doesn’t have a vision. He has “the real Hulk” — the uncontrollable rage that lives inside of him that wants to smash this cruel world to pieces. He isn’t just reminded of his worst fear (imagine if he’d been shown his past, like when he put Betty in the hospital; that would be an entirely different reaction), he  _embodies_ his worst fear. He prove to himself and the world that he is unsafe. Bruce comes back to himself immediately, and he is in agony. He’s sweating, he’s mourning. He’s listening to Hill talk about things like official calls for arrest and already knowing he has to leave everything he’s built with the Avengers — with Natasha — behind. 

By the time he gets to the farm, he’s got control again, but he’s isolated himself. He trudges in behind everyone else. He holds himself tight, even when Tony is trying to engage him. He notices Natasha’s auntie status, and he has to look away. She hasn’t told him about Clint’s family, of course. This is a secret that excludes him, just as this life is one that excludes him. When he shaves, he looks at his own reflection with intense hatred. But to Natasha, he’s gentle. He responds to her teasing. “You know I have to leave,” is not a statement he expects her to have a rebuttal to — especially not the one she has. 

The bedroom scene, to Bruce, is a farewell. It’s a punishment. He has to go. He can’t have this. He can’t have the Avengers, not with the monster inside of him. But for Natasha he makes an exception. He’s willing to run  _with_  her instead of  _from_  her, because he  _does_ feel safer with her. He is alone when Wanda attacked; that doesn’t save him. Veronica barely works. Lullabies are meant to dispel fears, to soothe. On top of that, Natasha understands him because she understands herself. She’s capable, and he respects her choices, even if he’s still worried. 

As you said, Anon, after Wanda’s visions, they both lose confidence in themselves. But, in deciding to run together, they reaffirm their confidence in each other — which is  _huge_  for their arcs.

I didn’t nearly cover everything that could be said about the fallout from Wanda’s visions, so if anyone else wants to make another post/add on, I’m  _sure_  there’s tons more to talk about! 


	50. brucenat + little moments

anonymous said:  
HulkwidowAnon returns, dear fellow. 1) Your six favourite brucenat little moments (3 Avengers, 3 Age of Ultron). 2) The kiss. We MUST to talk about their kiss. Their first kiss. What do you think about it? And in an AU, if you could write their first kiss… how would it be? :)

Hey, HulkwidowAnon! You always have such interesting questions!

**#1: My six favorite brucenat little moments:**

_**The Avengers** _

This movie is just full of little moments, because that’s exactly where you’ll find the curve of their arc if you’re looking. That makes it  _so hard to choose_. I threw out a bunch of faves because they’re just too significant and tried my best to stick to some tiny ones.

  * **1\. “You’re gonna love it, Doc. We got all the toys.”**  This little scene is a gold mine of reading too deeply into their fledgling relationship (I don’t mean that in a romantic sense; I mean that in an accepting each other sense). They go from ruffling the shit out of each other’s feathers in Kolkata to a  _nickname_ and a bemused smile _._  Neither of them look like they’re in a hurry to be rid of each other. Natasha is, of course, doing her job and they both know it. But they’re still pleasant to each other, even bordering on familiar. And don’t get me started on the extended scene, with Banner laying into the joke and calling Natasha young. They don’t have heart eyes at this point, but I sure do.
  * **2\. “Sorry, kids, you don’t get to see my party trick after all.”** In the wide shot, Bruce glances to Natasha, before he puts his head down and walks across the room. Natasha’s eyes follow him first, then she tails him, sticking close, even though Bruce Banner on the edge of an incident is the last place she wants to be. And when Bruce looks up all, “Oh, my god,” the only person he could be looking at is Natasha. Bunch of eye-contact porn, that whole scene is.
  * **3\. Shawarma smile/nod.** _This might be insane, but I was all up in Final Cut Pro like enhance and now I can’t not see it._ So. In the Shawarma scene, Natasha is staring at Clint and Bruce is kind of staring vaguely forward. Then Natasha’s eye line changes, and she’s got a little smile on her face. Bruce has a smile, too, and he’s nodding. They’re each smiling about their own little piece of happy — she got Clint back, Bruce is maybe thinking about Puny God —but they seem to catch each other’s eyes for just a second. And Bruce ducks his head and Natasha stares a bit longer and then drops hers. It’s adorable.  _Don’t try to convince me otherwise. I’m not listening. Lalalalalaaa…_



**_Age of Ultron_ **

This movie and these dorks. I can’t. I  _can’t_. Again, super tiny moments.

  * **1\. Bruce and Natasha at the party.** We only get one glimpse of Nat and one glimpse of Bruce when the party is in full swing, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that those glimpses follow each other. Bruce is amazingly awkward, almost hitting his head on a low-hanging lamp. And when he glances up, what does the camera cut to? Natasha, laughing and at ease with Rhodey. Socially awkward Bruce juxtaposed with in-her-element Natasha just makes me want to cuddle  _everything._
  * **2\. In the Quinjet after the Wanda hit.**  Everyone else in this scene is angled away from each other, but Bruce and Natasha are angled toward each other. Natasha is catatonic; Bruce is in agony. They’re alone in their heads, but their body language is reaching for one another and even that little bit of  _me_ reaching is enough to make me all misty.
  * **3\. Bruce behind Natasha in the kitchen.**  I love that he’s tucked back there while Natasha’s at the table. It’s another variation on the Bruce-is-awkward, Natasha-is-in-her-element theme. I love that he puts on his glasses right as Lila comes up to show Natasha the picture, and he’s watching. I  _think_  I even see a hint of a smile there, too, but it’s so blurry. Until I’m proven wrong, he  _smiles at the picture and the fact that it makes Natasha smile and kill me dead._



**#2: What do you think about the kiss?**

LOVE THE KISS. I love that it’s heartfelt and bittersweet and shocking and awesome. It’s a great character moment for Natasha and for Bruce.

I’m still kinda not convinced it’s their  _first_  kiss, necessarily. I mean, they’re  _so intimate_  and familiar in the bedroom scene at the farm. They joke about showers. Natasha steps in for a kiss and, to me, it’s like she’s been there before but it’s never meant so much. That’s all me, though. I’ll do a write-up on how I’ve bent canon to make that make sense some other time.

I definitely get the logic behind the reading that says their flirtation at the bar scene is Bruce  _just_  waking up to the fact that Natasha could be even attracted to him. So the first kiss angle does make sense, and I think it’s definitely a Joss Whedon first kiss. So much angst and tragedy there. It’s a significant kiss and a messed up first kiss, and therefore it makes for a  _great_  first kiss. 

That leads to my AU idea of a first kiss, which is definitely all wound up in my headcanon secret relationship kick — I like the idea that their first kiss is actually  _not_  romantic. I like the notion that they have this strange attraction between them that they can’t ignore, even though Bruce does  _not_ trust Natasha’s motives and Natasha is still in her “make something up” phase of intimacy. A first kiss in that scenario would be exciting and a little dangerous, but there would be something  _missing_  that they both don’t quite understand — and it wouldn’t be until their First Kiss with Emotions On the Table that they understand how much they’ve been pushing each other to be  _real_. (I might actually be more angsty than Joss Whedon. Sobering thought.)

Thanks for the asks!


	51. Response to PSA to MCU!brucenat defenders

[fear-is-contagious](http://fear-is-contagious.tumblr.com/post/123827926147):

> [blueincandescence](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/123388560285):
>
>> [fear-is-contagious](http://fear-is-contagious.tumblr.com/post/123380378542):
>>
>>> Stop using the excuse that the anti-MCU!Brucenat vs pro-MCU!Brucenat debates are the result (and solely the result) of shipping wars.
>>> 
>>> The argument that Natasha is better suited with characters other than Bruce is  _not_  based on the idea that a particular ship did not become canon but instead based on the fact that Natasha as a character never came across as ever being attracted to Bruce prior to AoU (to the majority of fans both casual and otherwise - I’m sure if you had asked people as they left the first Avengers if they though that Bruce and Natasha would manifest as a romantic relationship the next time we see them both most would have said categorically  **no** ) and this works vice versa also
>>> 
>>> Neither party were romantically linked to each other in the source material (yes, this is a valid point to make as generally the source material at the very least influences major plot points such as this and as a large portion of the fanbase are comic book readers and these films are somewhat geared towards said demographic it would be expected that one could find major plot points of influences within the comics).
>>> 
>>> Throughout AoU, there is continuous approval from other characters for MCU!Brucenat  - such as Steve Rogers in the bar scene and Nick Fury at the end who practically acts like the in-movie voice of Joss Whedon stating that (unlike the fans) he saw a spark from first sight -  ** _actually_**   _foresaw_  a spark before first sight -  which serves to show how the representation of this relationship was in a constant state of needing this approval because whoever made this decision knew it would most likely end up in a marmite situation (love it or hate it) which is never good in terms of the continued loyalty and satisfaction of fans.  ~~We won’t even get in to how Clint Barton would clearly notice if his best friend was suddenly acting all lovey-dovey with a teammate)~~
>>> 
>>> There are  _so_  many arguments that do not need to include any other characters besides the two involved and so the argument that the only reason there is criticism of the representation of a ship you like in a form of media is due to someone else shipping one of more parties with a different character is to ignore all other arguments in favour of one that creates a hero/villain atmosphere.
>>> 
>>> **_It’s not._ **
>>> 
>>> When a valid point is raised there is always someone who tries to shoot it down with this excuse which presents the idea that such people either do not wish to have a debate about the subject and/or are not willing to listen to other ideas and so wish to invalidate them, believe that by doing so they will garner pity and/or will be seen as the victim in the situation or are truly ignorant and are making a blanket statement out of a lack of knowledge. I am in  _no way_  saying that I have supreme knowledge that this is the intention behind such statements but it is how it comes across.
>>> 
>>> So, please, stop assuming that you know the arguments from the other side before you have even truly read, understood and debated them. And, please, understand that these criticisms are of an idea not of your own person. The  _representation_  of a ship in the media is  _entirely open to criticism_ ; we are  **not**  criticising the ship itself (everyone has varying versions within a ship and so it would be very difficult to do so anyway as everyone ships a slightly different ship even if it contains the same characters) and we openly invite discussion should you be willing to engage.
>>> 
>>> _Please, engage don’t ignore the debate and presume the result._
>> 
>> I take your point and I’ll say that I definitely am not bothered that the Bruce and Natasha relationship isn’t to your liking. Nothing wrong with that. 
>> 
>> I would add a caveat — the  _debate_  is one thing. The  _hate_ is another. 
>> 
>> As, I write in [this post](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/122903055355/i-see-posts-against-bruce-nat-using-the-comments), there are a lot of valid reasons why people wouldn’t jump on board the Bruce/Natasha ship, particularly because  _AoU_  is a movie that needs more room to breathe. That’s my criticism of it, as well. Also, like you mention, a lot of people didn’t see the potential in  _Avengers_  (others did and that shouldn’t be ignored, either). These are valid opinions. They are neither here nor there. Please freely express them.
>> 
>> But the  _hate_ that has piled on the ship is different than criticism. All the little “ews,” and “grosses” that we see in the tags all the time, on top of long-winded complaints that misconstrue fact and opinion (opinion: ‘Clint and Natasha have more sexual tension’; if that’s the way you see it, cool, but the  _fact_  is that  _I don’t_  and that should be cool, too) are, typically, but not always, a shipper thing.
>> 
>> And those of us who like to debate (some people don’t like to debate, that’s their preference not to engage) are willing to talk about about how  _we feel_  about the representation. What we ask for is an  _open dialogue._ “The Bruce/Natasha romance is abusive” is a closed dialogue. “I feel that the Bruce/Natasha romance is abusive because of x, y, z” is an open dialogue. 
>> 
>> To that end:
>>
>>> Throughout AoU, there is continuous approval from other characters for MCU!Brucenat  - such as Steve Rogers in the bar scene and Nick Fury at the end who practically acts like the in-movie voice of Joss Whedon stating that (unlike the fans) he saw a spark from first sight -  ** _actually_**   _foresaw_  a spark before first sight -  which serves to show how the representation of this relationship was in a constant state of needing this approval because whoever made this decision knew it would most likely end up in a marmite situation (love it or hate it) which is never good in terms of the continued loyalty and satisfaction of fans.  ~~We won’t even get in to how Clint Barton would clearly notice if his best friend was suddenly acting all lovey-dovey with a teammate)~~
>> 
>> The “continuous approval” — I discuss that point in-depth in that same [post](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/122903055355/i-see-posts-against-bruce-nat-using-the-comments). Essentially, I say that it isn’t the best writing in the world but it’s purpose is not to pile on approval for brucenat but also to set up character beats (i.e., it sets up Steve’s regret, which builds his story arc later.) Also, for Nick Fury, I jokingly call him a ‘shipper from way back, but I definitely see it as much more pragmatic. He got a great team — Hulk/Widow  _is_ a great team, in terms of the lullaby/the fact that Natasha can act as the Hulk wrangler. 
>> 
>> Also, I wouldn’t say that Clint shrugging off Bruce/Natasha was really approval. It was more like a, “Okay, that’s weird.” And Tony’s comment could be construed as mildly hostile, not really approving. People comment on each other. It’s a thing. Plus, the fact that Hawkeye  _didn’t_  notice just goes to show that Natasha isn’t as “lovey-dovey OOC” as people tend to claim. She played her feelings for Bruce close enough to her chest that Clint didn’t notice. The fact that Steve did, I think, has to do with her playing matchmaker for him in  _CA:TWS_ , so he’d be more likely to try to return the favor.
>> 
>> All my opinion, but you said you wanted a debate. I like debates, so I responded.
> 
> Sorry it has taken so long to reply, unfortunately sometimes life outside of tumblr gets in the way.
> 
> I agree with you, debate is one thing and blatant hate is another. I do  **not**  condone blatant hate. At the same time I think it is necessary to understand that Brucenat shippers have not been singled out in terms of receiving hate. It happens to all ships (I have seen hate from Brucenat shippers in the Clintasha tag - it is not unique to Brucenat). I think the reasoning behind the more obvious presence of it in the Brucenat tag (bear in mind that  _this is_   _not justification_ but merely the possible reasons I can think of) is that the ship has only fairly recently manifested (as canon) in the MCU and was also (and one could argue still is) not a ship supported by the majority. Once again, note that these are not justifications merely observations.
> 
> Anyway, to the actual points mentioned. You linked a previous post and so after reading that I felt like I should offer some response to that also as it expands upon points mentioned in the more recent post, so here I go.
> 
> You say that the three main components of the  _Brucenat is forced argument_  are as follows: fandoms love a tease and want to feel clever about figuring out that a ship would happen, their storyline (with its  _massive interesting backstory and huge amount of depth_ \- which I will get to later) happens too quickly and then of course the main focus of my previous post - shipping wars.
> 
> To the first point -  _fandoms love a tease_  - after reading your explanation of this I still didn’t understand how even though accepting the fact that there was not enough build-up to the ship’s canonical manifestation you can still disagree with the view that it was forced. That, to me, is the definition of forced. You also state that Brucenat was once a  **crackship** \- which is defined in several ways:  _a relationship that is so insane it must be on crack. Relatively common in fan fiction_ / _any pairing that makes absolutely no sense, story wise_ / _two_  characters  _who hold absolutely no romantic feelings for each other and appear as if the shipper put the two together via randomization_ / _a pairing where you need to be on crack to think those involved have any chemistry_ / _pairings that put together people who clearly have no romantic feelings_ / _any pairing that has me going “Wtf! Never in a million years_  - are some of the various definitions I found online. With this in mind, I think that calling the ship a  _crackship_  whilst still defending its presence in canon is somewhat self-refuting and contradictory. You then claim that they have a  _massive interesting backstory_  which is again somewhat contradictory to the previous point and (as you go on to say) not shown in the movie and so we don’t actually know what their backstory is and so are now wandering into headcanon-land. The third point references shipping wars which have already been discussed.
> 
> You then go on to list the moments in AoU where we are  ** _told_**  that MCU!Brucenat is a thing.
> 
> 1) Steve - yes I agree I  _did_  get a sense of Steve’s regrets where Peggy is concerned during this scene. And, yes, it fits with the new dynamic formed between Nat and Cap during TWS. However, as it occurs during the first Brucenat ( _not Hulknat_ ) scene in the movie it still comes across primarily as a way of trying to tell the audience that  _Cap likes it so you have to_.
> 
> 2) Laura and Clint - the point I made about Clint in my previous post refers to the fact that he is  _renowned for his skills of observation_   (hence the name Hawkeye) and so having him not notice such a big change in his best friend’s life (whilst having Cap notice it immediately) seems out of place and introduces inconsistency in the Nat/Clint dynamic Whedon is trying to present. You also say that as it gets brushed off quickly it is not the centre of the movie or the scene -  _why did it even need to be in the scene anyway?_  This scene happened  _before_  the Brucenat scene at the farmhouse and as far as we can see there was no interaction between the two of them between arriving at the farmhouse and this scene (in fact they were at opposite ends of the room). It felt as if those comments were only made to, again add to the legitimacy of MCU!Brucenat but also at a tongue-in-cheek remark aimed at the possibility of MCU!Clintasha as it was again another Avenger (and again, one with whom a larger percentage of the fanbase ship Nat) who had to offer their approval before their next scene.  _ ~~We won’t even get into the pure awkwardness and wtf of said next scene just yet.~~_  You go on to say in the more recent post that the reason Steve noticed whilst Clint didn’t is due to the matchmaking in TWS. That doesn’t account for why the most observant member of the team who has been best friends with Nat for a long time wouldn’t notice the flirting or the looks  _ ~~or whatever it is MCU!Brucenat supporters see that everyone else doesn’t.~~_
> 
> 3) Tony - again, it was an unnecessary comment, played for laughs that didn’t even work in the situation because having too many one liners in a scene that is supposed to contain high stakes and serious action just brings the film down. I think Joss tried to add too many jokes into the movie and by this point they had begun to grow boring  _ ~~and I could also go into the terrible writing of Brucenat (a lot of which happens during the farmhouse scene) as well as other aspects of the movie (because MCU!Brucenat is not the sole thing I had problems with - I was very disappointed with AoU) but it is already late.~~_
> 
> 4) Nick - okay, so this scene really made me  **cringe**  at the screen. It felt like Joss Whedon speaking through Fury as what Fury said is  ** _so_** similar to Whedon’s justifications for choosing to pursue the relationship. He claims to have  _ **foreseen**_  that Bruce and Nat would ‘click’ which is why he sent her to Calcutta - one, it is not his place to send her into a dangerous situation just because he thinks that she will fall hopelessly in love with the guy  _(she chooses who she likes not Fury)_  and also it just doesn’t make sense. It serves again as another major figure in Nat’s life  **telling**  the audience that it’s okay. That they should have seen it coming and if they didn’t joke’s on them.

Hey, no worries. I’ve been out of town myself this weekend.

I agree with your observations on the hate. It’s tiresome, but it’s part of the whole tumblr thing.

As for our debate, as it so often does, the arguments are obscured by definitions.

I’ll start with “crackship.” I mean, what  actually I said was that it was  _considered_  crack, which is a comment on other people’s perceptions. But, even so, I did misuse the term based on the definitions you found. I’m not hip to the lingo. What I was trying to get at was the fact that, up until AOU, all MCU canon ships had been based on ships that had, at one time or another, been canon in the comics. Even though I liked their dynamic from the start, I never thought in a million years Marvel would go for a non-comics ship — but here we are. Mostly, I used the term because I like the way it sounds. I don’t consider them crack in the Natasha/Groot sense, because I can see the compatibility in the characters’ similarities, differences, and storylines.

The second definition is the idea of “forced.” The common argument is that “brucenat is forced” because, one, it didn’t have explicit build-up in previous films and, two, because of the persistent idea that AoU is “Joss Whedon’s personal fanfic” (which is what you called in your response to [postcards-from-far-away](http://tmblr.co/mzxJIxNRMQoH5DuDdv-dy4g)). I’ll address both those points.

1) I don’t think a lack of build-up defines a “forced” relationship.

Nothing in IM2 indicated that Natasha had a close relationship with another SHIELD agent, but when we discover that relationship in TA we aren’t thrown by it. Nothing in TA indicated that Natasha would take an interest in Steve’s personal life — in fact, she played it cool and uninterested as a comic foil to Coulson’s fanboy. But when CA:TWS rolled around, we get Natasha actively trying to find Steve a date and caring about whether or not he’s found somebody special. The Russos didn’t draw us a map from “Love is for children” Natasha; instead, they expected us as an audience to realize that Steve and Natasha have formed a friendship over the past two years and accept that she’s warmed up to him.

Bruce and Natasha have been living and working together in Avengers Tower at the very least (nothing explicitly says they didn’t interact between TA and CA:TWS). AOU  _shows_  us that they’ve grown close through the lullaby and then cements it with the conversation in the Quinjet. Just like CA:TWS, we’re dropped into a new normal. Bruce and Natasha are close. We can see it.

The other aspect of the “forced” argument is that Natasha is out of character in AOU. I’ve written two metas ([here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117869098770/natasha-character-development) and [here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/119026848295/natasha-in-aou-v-natasha-in-tws#tumblr_notes)) about how AOU Natasha is  _much_  more like her CA:TWS character than her TA persona. In CA:TWS, we see the transition between the Natasha who believes that not trusting people is a good way not to die to the Natasha who wants trust from Steve and wants to be part of Fury’s inner circle. It happens literally overnight. I’ve read your posts praising CA:TWS, so I wouldn’t imagine you would call  _that_ forced.

But the fact that this experience makes Natasha more open ( _relatively speaking, sometimes_ ) months later is somehow out of character? That I don’t understand. Look at the way Natasha acts in group scenes. She doesn’t stand any closer to Bruce (save the Quinjet scene, but that’s part of her assignment as the Hulk tamer so no one would find that strange). Her looks at Bruce in the Cho scene are subtle and directed only at him. The bar scene happens  _after_ Bruce looks around to make sure they’re alone. The farm scene conversation, where Natasha is her most vulnerable, happens when she is completely alone with Bruce. She’s not a teenager falling all over herself in love. She’s careful. She’s professional in public moments and personal in private moments.

This is where I’ll address your point that my reading of their relationship as having massive potential and interesting backstory is dipping too far into headcanon territory. I can see that, but it’s also a logical conclusion based on what we see in the movies. We see Bruce and Natasha’s first meeting in TA and we see how much they struggle to trust each other throughout that film. Then, in AOU, we see the lullaby, we see them trusting each other. That’s massive and, to me, fascinating. How do you convince a person who is  _terrified_  of himself to let a person without even Cap-level strength — a person the Hulk once tried to kill — be the one to talk the Hulk down after every battle? Why does she even  _want to_ be that person? Why is she so proud of herself (that little smile) afterward? These are interesting questions that  _have to have an answer_. We don’t get to see it, unfortunately, but then we don’t get to  _see_  Clint make a different call, either. We know it because of  _telling_ , that ‘hallmark of terrible writing.’

Cl*ntasha is an interesting idea for people  _because_ of their massive potential backstory. The romantic angle of Cl*ntasha is all headcanon. They never even brush hands in  _TA_  and the necklace could mean anything. I’m not saying this to deride the ship  _at all_. I just want to make it clear that the idea that romantic Cl*ntasha was ever canon holds no water with me. I  _completely understand_  where the idea comes from; the redemption angle makes for a compelling romance. But I think it’s ridiculous for Cl*ntasha shippers to act like their pairing was more than fanon or that Marvel made them any promises.

To recap, it just bugs the crap out of me that Cl*ntasha shippers can build a ship out of a few lines of dialogue and a three-minute scene in  _TA_ and Rom*nogers shippers can hop on board with character growth behind the scenes in  _CA:TWS_ but  _God forbid_  anyone extend that same bountiful imagination to Brucenat in  _AOU_. It’s hypocritical and annoying.

2) The other definition of the forced argument is the “Joss shoved it down our throats” argument. Here we’re just going to have to disagree, because we clearly read the scenes differently.

Steve: The bar scene is the first time that the pairing is discussed, yes, but it’s  _not_  the first time Bruce/Natasha have interacted in a meaningful way. That’s the Quinjet scene. As I said, I don’t find it too over the top because it pulled double-duty with Steve’s storyline. Not the best writing, but not bad.

Clint: Hawkeye in TA says, “I see better from a distance.” He’s too close to Nat to see that she has a crush. Unlike Steve, Clint has never seen Natasha flirt “up close” for her own amusement; probably the only time they’ve flirted given the whole family thing was on missions in other personas. Obviously, Clint understands that the lullaby is a thing and that Bruce and Natasha had to get closer for it to work. But clearly Natasha has kept her romantic feelings to herself. And, not to belabor the point, but I think that pretty clearly shows that Natasha  _hasn’t_  been acting all lovey-dovey with Bruce in the slightest — at least not when anyone could see.

Laura: It would have been  _amazing_  to see a scene of Laura observing Bruce and Natasha (of course, the haters would just say, 'Ew, more brucenat talking up time in the movie when there could have been whatever’). But I stand by my opinion that the comment works adequately because it also pulls double duty. It shows that Laura is an observant person and is a complement to her husband, who is more of a big picture, practical thinker.

Tony: It’s a dumb joke; I don’t care for it either.

Nick: Like I said, I  _do not_  think that Nick was playing matchmaker. If we want to read it as Natasha asking, “Did you realize that Bruce and I would get this personal?” then his response — “You never know. You hope for the best, make due with what you get. I got a great team.” — is more like, “It’s nice that you two kids kinda got together, but I wanted Avengers.” Nick Fury saw a weapon (Hulk) and a safety net (Widow). I determined this based on Fury’s pragmatic personality and determination to make the Avengers work. He would think of every angle, including how to keep the Hulk in check, and Natasha fits that bill (he may have gotten this idea from the Betty Ross interaction at Harlem and Culver). If you want to read it as Nick trying to force a romance because heart eyes, there’s nothing that contradicts that but it isn’t in character. Why would you go with the out of character reading unless you’re trying to find something to dislike about the scene?

See, this is where I get frustrated again. All of this is interpretation. Generous interpretation looks at the characters and looks at the scene and tries to see where the two flow together. Ungenerous interpretation attributes to malice what can be read another way.

Let’s take a non-ship example. In AOU, I found it strange at first that Thor would tell Steve and Tony to take the lead in retrieving his brother’s staff. Then I thought, oh, it shows that he’s even further on his character arc. He’s been learning humility and how to trust a team of mortals. He couldn’t have stopped the bad guy in T:TDW without Jane and Slevic; now he trusts Steve and Tony to get the job done. Good for him.

The ungenerous interpretation throws out any notion of respect or benefit of the doubt to the writers/actors/creators in order to reject something that doesn’t sit right. The malice comes in with ideas like, ‘The only reason that Thor doesn’t take the lead is because Joss HATES THOR because he’s a big, fat nerd and can’t relate to a character who is so beautiful and athletic, ew! And Thor is the best, he should lead everything because he’s a god and a king and never mind humility!’”

To be perfectly clear, I am  _not_ accusing you of the latter. It’s just something I’m tired of seeing.

I  _will say_  that I do take issue with your insistence on calling AOU “Joss Whedon fanfic.” That is a really flimsy argument. Something you didn’t like personally happens on screen so suddenly it’s fanfic? That’s not how this works. What if I loved bad bitch Natasha Romanoff and took offense at the fact that she cared about Steve getting a date or asked him if he trusted her? I could dismiss CA:TWS as Russo Bros. fanfic, too, but that wouldn’t make it true. Canon is canon; people who put so much hate into a thing they profess to love is baffling to me. Also:

> It felt as if those comments were only made to, again add to the legitimacy of MCU!Brucenat but also at a tongue-in-cheek remark aimed at the possibility of MCU!Clintasha as it was again another Avenger (and again, one with whom a larger percentage of the fanbase ship Nat) who had to offer their approval before their next scene.

To me, this demonstrates a persecution complex. It’s not present in the scene; it’s entirely fan conspiracy. Fandom popularity does not drive these movies. So what if Cl*ntasha is more popular? St*cky is popular, too; should the MCU put them together? Oh, but what about St*ny shippers? It’s true that a franchise has a responsibility to the fans to produce well-made material that stays true to the essence of the source materia,l but Marvel has NO obligation to stop telling its own stories or to realize the fanon dreams of each of its fans. Again, that’s not how this works.

Fans are free to explore all kinds of avenues and that’s what’s so fantastic about tumblr and cons and what have you! And, yeah, it  _sucks_ to be disappointed by a franchise. Talk to me about Rogue’s gradual erasure from the X-Men franchise and you’ll get me at my saltiest. BUT, at the end of the day, they have no obligation to me. I’m not going to say XM: DOFP is the worst movie ever made and Singer’s fanfic because I didn’t get my way. It’s a perfectly entertaining film. Not perfect, but what is?

Anyway, I hope you don’t feel like I’m attacking you as a person or anything for disagreeing or taking issue with your points. I don’t have anything against you personally  _at all_. I’m just voicing my frustration with fandom.

 


	52. brucenat + strategic friendship

[rainbofiction](http://rainbofiction.tumblr.com/) said:  
[3] So - multifold reasoning. Because I can quite easily see how he would fascinate her as a person: Having that raw animalistic part of him so clearly visible (unlike Steve) and rising above it; having that power and no desire to use it; and also, the bodily safety that she spends so much time securing for herself, he has that in spades, and so he can focus on more selfless goals. All of those things might fascinate her. BUT ALSO: it's a solid strategic move on her part.

[plain-flavoured-english](http://plain-flavoured-english.tumblr.com/post/124068194309/3-so-multifold-reasoning-because-i-can-quite):

> _[4] The one way she could protect herself from the Hulk is to have Bruce Banner be in love with her. Better than that, he might even come to her defense. And that was my first thought when I heard about that storyline: an unsurprising strategic move from the Black Widow. Seduce the thing that makes her afraid.  
> _
> 
>  
> 
> _5] (Not that I ship it - I have a very hard time seeing Ruffalo as a romantic lead. But I guess I kinda ship it.) BONUS ROUND: What if, instead of the “infertile” stuff … since the conversation was about children and Bruce saying he couldn’t give her children … what if she flashed back to a Red Room mission that had her killing children? Implying that, with her past, she couldn’t imagine being a mother anyway. That would have been so much more tragic-awesome._
> 
> _[6] the end. Thank you for listening. :D_
> 
> Whoops, I responded to parts 1 & 2 before seeing these. This is a really interesting reading and a great way to smooth out the inconsistencies in Natasha’s characterization. I personally like to read her flirting with Bruce as like a coping mechanism, an unhealthy attempt to regain control over the thing that scares her, or maybe a way to downplay that fear. She’s also in a lot of turmoil from the events of  _CATWS._ Which is why I secretly like to imagine there’s a scene at the end of  _AoU_ where Steve goes, ‘Um, Nat, do you want to talk about this thing that’s going on with Banner, because I don’t think it’s healthy and you’re clearly anxious and holding onto a lot of stuff and I just want you to know I’m here for you’ and it’s all BROTP!Stevetasha and it’s great.
> 
> Also, so much yes to your BONUS ROUND. I’m all about the tragic-awesome.

 

[rainbofiction](http://rainbofiction.tumblr.com/post/124112487374):

> [blueincandescence](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/124070289545/3-so-multifold-reasoning-because-i-can-quite):
>
>> The observation about Natasha being strategic in her friendships is really on point and, I think, something that is really tragic about her character. I can see her wanting to have friendships for the sake of friendships but, as is pointed out, there’s always the strategic thinker lurking in the back of her brain. That makes for great internal conflict.
>> 
>> So where I diverge (and I’m not trying to start a debate or anything, you can absolutely ignore me; I just thought this was really interesting, so I wanted engage just for myself) is that I see fear aspect of their relationship having begun to be resolved at the end of The Avengers. Natasha is wary of the Hulk in the opening of AOU, but she isn’t skittish, she isn’t reluctant. I think for those who read the relationship as potentially abusive (I’ve even seen posts about the relationships being abusive from the other direction), that isn’t evident and so there’s a disconnect.
>> 
>> But, again, interesting commentary is interesting!
> 
> Why, thank you! Yeah, I could keysmash sadly about Natasha for hours, about how her capacity for human connection was weaponized and thus taken from her, and so she can barely even trust herself, and it’s super sad. This is why I’m super skeptical about any romantic-sexual ship for Natasha. Because for a long time, her sexuality was not her own; and if she ever starts backsliding, that would be the first habit to return. ANYWAY- 
> 
> I don’t disagree with you. I think that, like you said, her strategic and emotional reasoning runs concurrently, and with Bruce I think they actually coincide. She needs to feel safe from him. At the same time, she knows that being afraid of him would hurt him. She certainly wouldn’t  _show_ fear - both because fear is contagious, and might influence Bruce and/or the Hulk in dangerous ways; but also because it would hurt him if she showed fear. 
> 
> (This is true for the Avengers as a whole, actually. The Avengers being a team allows her caring nature to coincide with her personal manipulation skills, and transforms it into personnel management and  _team_  management - caring for her team. See how she tries to manage Steve’s well-being in  _CATWS_.)
> 
> So, hypothetically if she tried to manage Bruce, she would handle him both as a threat and as a member of her team. In both cases, she would act friendly towards him  _regardless_  of how scared she was. She would try to soothe his self-loathing both as her friend, and as an operative. 
> 
> What I’m saying is, her actions make sense  _whether or not_  she genuinely loves and adores him. And they make sense  _whether or not_  she’s afraid of him. And - well, in her previous two movies, she had a relationship teased with both Steve and Clint. In both cases (I’d argue) the seemingly-romantic overtures were part of her managing them. So, is Bruce part of this pattern? Or is he the break in the pattern? Did it start as strategy and transform into love? I honestly don’t know, because I think this is essential to Natasha’s character - the audience isn’t allowed to get a read on her. We never fully know what truth she’s telling. The essence of her character is to fool us. And I think this is why there’s such a divergent reading of her character and this relationship.

Interesting commentary gets even more interesting! Keysmash away! I’m going to put this under a cut so it’s not a monster to scroll past.

All your points are great ones. When I’m thinking about Natasha as a character, I think about her struggling with all the negative aspects of her personality that you bring up and trying to claim ownership over them. 

In CA:TWS, we see her flirting a few times (Sam, “Hey, Sailor,” and Steve), and each time she doesn’t  _have_  to flirt. There are other ways to get the job done/the information she wants. Does she flirt because that was part of her training? Does she flirt because she likes it? I can see her struggling to figure that out for herself. 

You bring up the interpretation of the character’s sexuality that says Natasha would likely lean toward asexuality because she has weaponized sex so often. I can definitely see the logic and validity behind that reasoning. I certainly agree that Natasha would have issues with sex and romance. 

But I also am interested in the idea that, even after all she’s been through,  _Natasha likes to flirt_. When she feels the need for intimacy, she  _makes something up_ and finds that intimacy in order to reclaim her sexuality for herself. This process would definitely have its own thorny issues to untangle, not the least of which because of Natasha’s issues with identity (there was rumored storyboarded scene that was taken out of AOU where Nat was going to be putting on different languages and accents, essentially highlighting her amazing ability to be  _whoever anyone wants her to be_ and how difficult that makes it to figure out who she is and who she wants to be, kill me dead). 

As for the relationship with Bruce, what you says really resonates with me. I’m a shipper, obviously, but it works for me because nothing contradicts a slow burn (I’m not trying to convert you; I just love talking about these characters with people who do, too). Natasha is one hundred percent Bruce’s handler (that’s the role Nick Fury envisioned for her), and, as is her style, she blurs the professional and personal in order to get the best outcome. Whether she’s hiding her fear or has gotten over it, the lullaby is a tactical strategy for sure. 

But there’s another level to their relationship that I find compelling, and that’s the idea of trust.

In TA, Bruce shows time and again that he knows manipulation when it’s directed at him, but Natasha keeps trying to handle him. She fears the uncontrollable, and that’s what Bruce is. So by the end of TA, she realizes that the only way to deal with Bruce is be straight with him. She tells him that, yes, she’s afraid of the Hulk but the Hulk is useful. She hands him his duffle bag and fulfills her promise to let him walk away. She does this because it’s practical and she’s adaptable.

Now, in the two-three years between Kolkata and Sokovia, Natasha goes through a lot of life changes. CA:TWS is the beginning of her journey for authenticity. 

She learns to want someone with  _shared life experience_ and she uncovers a deep need to earn people’s trust. Bruce has the first (childhood trauma, duality of self, etc.), and he is one of the few characters to see right through her instantly (as both Bruce and the Hulk). Gaining Bruce’s trust is meaningful, because, just maybe, he can tell if she’s obfuscating. 

That’s a bit messed up, but, like you said, any kind of relationship Natasha engages in isn’t going to be one hundred percent healthy (even non-weaponized people have a hard enough time finding that). In an interview, Scarlett said that Bruce and Natasha have romanticized each other. The characters  _want_  a connection with each other. I think they do adore each other; for all the negative traits they immediately identified in each other in Kolkata (he’s unpredictable, she’s a liar, etc.), they can still see the genuine goodness in each other (he’s a pacifist, she’s deeply empathetic, etc.) and by AOU that’s essentially  _all_  they see (hence the adoration). 

Essentially, I think she is trying her damnedest to be genuine, because she’s identified that as something she wants to be. But whether she can or whether this is that…that’s up for interpretation. But the act of trying is significant either way.

I’m glad that AOU ends with Natasha and Bruce apart. I think it’s really important for their character arcs that they were able to even get to the point of thinking ‘I am worthy of love/I want love’ but they need more time to sort themselves out before they can engage in any semblance of a healthy relationship. Brucenat in AOU is a mess of conflicting levels of intimacy, and I think it was meant to be. 

It totally fits in with what you’re saying about Natasha’s character. She’s hard to pin down for the audience, and I think she’s hard to pin down in her own mind. What we do know is that she had a choice: run away with Bruce and try to create a brand new life with him or be true to her journey so far by betraying him (in a loose sense) so that they both can be heroes. I’m so glad she made the choice she did. I hope, of course, that Bruce and Natasha grow as characters and find their way back to each other (let’s be real; they might get five minutes in  _Infinity Wars: Part 2_ ). But if they don’t, they don’t.

And I totally agree that there are so many valid interpretations out there. Like you said, you can definitely read the relationship as being more or less genuine. These are characters who have a traumatic relationship with trust and choice, so talking about nuances of motivation is definitely rewarding. I just hate when people dismiss Natasha’s heroic arc in AOU because they don’t like brucenat. I reeks of misogyny dressed up like feminism. 

This reply got super out of control, but, as I said, I liked what you have to say!


	53. brucenat is not toxic

** anonymous said:**

**"The thing about** brutasha **that gets me off is… If they ended up running away together, then both of them would believe that they themselves were really monsters. And I think that’s what makes this ship toxic is because they** feed of **each other’s negativity on themselves." thoughts?**

The ‘gets me off’ bit  _really_ made me think this was going in different direction; I was like, “Go on…”

As for what was actually written (I haven’t seen it before, so I don’t know where it’s from) — my thoughts are a BIG NO, Anon.

This whole hate-on-brutasha thing is so  **muddled**. There are the people whose hate stems from the idea that they are  _too cutesy/out of character_ together. Then there are the people who think that they’re  _abusive toward/toxic_   _for_  each other. Are these the same people? Do they compare notes? Who knows.

The thing is, I can see where this person gets the idea that, for each character, running away would be negative character growth.

  * Bruce is doubting that he could ever control the monster and use it for good, which would undo his character arc from  _TIH_  on.
  * Natasha is giving up on her dream to be an Avenger, to be more than the killer the Red Room made her to be, which is tragic.



As an audience who are rooting for these characters, we don’t want them to regress, we want them to succeed. We  _want them to be heroes_. And, in the end, so does Natasha. That’s why she forces Bruce to Hulk out. She knows that they’ve put themselves on this path to redemption and they have to see it through. 

**But what makes _Natasha’s choice_ a true heroic sacrifice is the fact that she’s  _giving up something good._** **Because Bruce and Natasha, by choosing each other, would not have been _regressing_  but, rather,  _progressing_  in a different direction. **

  * Bruce Banner — with his deep-seated self-hatred, pathological ability to push aside those he loves (see: Betty Ross), and doubts as to whether he can ever have any kind of family — is willing to run away  _with_ someone rather than  _from_ them. 
  * Natasha Romanoff — who endured people trying to strip her of a place in the world and steal her humanity away and who has spent almost half her life atoning for the sins they visited on her body —  _wants_   _something else_. 



In the farm scene, Bruce says, “In the future with me,” because that’s what he thinks about when he looks at Natasha, a future. And Natasha’s little answering smile is proof that that’s where her mind would like to be, too.  **Maybe they can’t have Clint’s idyllic Midwestern dream, but, together, maybe they can figure out what they _can_ have. They’re willing to try, and that’s beautiful.**

The Avengers is  _ **not**_  an unmitigated good. It has its “This is what SHIELD is supposed to be”-style moments of heroism. It’s intentions are good. But, as this movie points out again and again and again,  **these heroes are killers**. Yes, the Avengers are Bruce and Natasha’s home; being on the team is a productive way for them to wipe out the red in their respective ledgers and put their monsters to use. It’s for a good cause, but  _it still asks them to be violent, to be killers._ In Bruce and Natasha’s cases, they don’t feel the hero part as much as the violence, the sacrifice,  _because they both believe they deserve to suffer for their sins._

**_But they tell each other it doesn’t have to be that way._** As Bruce says to Natasha in about the most romantic matter-of-fact-statement I’ve ever heard, “You’ve done plenty. Our fight is over.” And, for that, Natasha is one hundred percent sincere when she says, “I adore you.” With his statement, Bruce is  _ **absolving**_  them of their respective monstrosities and, with hers, Natasha is  _ **agreeing**_  that they deserve love and forgiveness and a better life. 

But not yet. The world still needs killers to save it. There’s a Vision, but it took monsters to create him. So Natasha pushes away her chance at a different path. She goes to be a hero. And that’s all well and good for her character,  _I love that, because Natasha is my hero._  And I  _love_  that the Hulk is immediately like, Yes, Red Spider Lady, I will go be a hero and smash for you.

If they would have gone, they would have regretted it because  _the job’s not finished._  Their friends might have died and the city might have fallen; they would  _not_  have regretted it because they were running away to be monsters together.  ** _They were running away to live_**.

The hero angle is what we as an audience want to see, yet there’s something toxic about that. Look at the sanguine way Natasha submits to death; “There are worse ways to go.” And Bruce’s choice to leave alone — is that regressing? Or is he determined to return with a better handle on the Other guy? Either way, it’s self-imposed exile and that ain’t exactly healthy. 

No one  _can_  make healthy decisions all the time.  _We hope for the best. Make do with what we get._

Natasha and Bruce recognize the monsters in each other, but they also see each other’s incredible humanity; their connection is a  **mirror** , and, yes, sometimes that mirror will show some dark things, as in  _TA_ , but what we get in AOU is  _light_. We get dorky banter and charged looks and comfort in touch.  **They bring out each other’s inner sweetness _and_ they can confide in each other knowing the other person  _will hear them_. **

_**Now, tell me again what the hell about that is toxic?** _

Those are my thoughts. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Anon!

 

 

**anonymous said:**  
 **People who ship** brucenat **support non-con relationships**

**:**

> **Yes, yes they do anon**

 

[Originally posted by yourreactiongifs](https://tmblr.co/ZMseho1BuLWEx)

 

I’m really, really sick and tired of tumblr’s obsession with mislabeling things they find personally distasteful in fiction as actual fucking problems in this world.

1\. Brucenat is  _not_  a non-consensual relationship. It is a burgeoning romance that both parties, at one time or another, alternatively shut down or embrace for different reasons. That happens in the real world. Timing is a bitch.

2\. I, personally, don’t like to read about non-consensual relationships, but some people — including some rape survivors — do. That does  _not_  mean they “support” non-consensual relationships  _actually taking place_.

3\. I could say, “People who love Clintasha support grooming relationships,” considering he’s (a) much older than Natasha and (b) she “owes” him her life. But I wouldn’t say that, because that would be stupid.

4\. Rape culture is all around us. That’s a fact. But crying ‘rape culture’ when you really mean ‘character pairing that I don’t like’ is annoying at best and counter-productive at worst.

Now, go enjoy your thing and leave other people to enjoy their thing. 


	54. A Note on AoU Hate

An anon asked me about my opinions on TA vs. AOU and it spiraled into a diatribe about all the hate that AOU gets. Some of it is fair — the studio did itself no favors by cutting it short. Some of it is ridiculous. (I promise, Anon, I’ll answer your  _actual_  question, after I get this out of my system!)

Personally, I think the hate for AOU comes in a few flavors, and the article about the [“12 Reasons The Avengers: Age of Ultron”](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmoviepilot.com%2Fposts%2F2015%2F07%2F19%2Fa-dozen-reasons-age-of-ultron-failed-3394230%3Flt_source%3Dexternal%2Cmanual&t=YmVmNTNlZGZhZTlkYjRiMDE0YjQzYWE2NWUyM2ZiOTMwMTYxODJjYixJWk15ZUJ0Yg%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F124584395850%2Fa-note-on-aou-hate&m=1)encompasses pretty much all of them in a mishmash of circular reasoning. This is  _one person’s hate —_   not a whole fandom of disparate people — and it’s all contradictory. 

  * **Extreme Nitpicking**



In that article, Reason 3 is that Hulkbuster is never called Hulkbuster. First, so what? Second, actually, there’s a little easter egg that shows that the  _suit_ is called Hulkbuster and the deployment mechanism is VERONICA. This kind of stuff is so shallow that it’s easy to brush off. Also, check your nerd cred.

  * **_Too much_ demand for continuity**



I am a continuity  _slut;_ one of the reasons I got into the MCU is because I am so impressed with the ambitious scale of it. I was bothered by the fact that the 75 year Capsical timeline doesn’t track. I am that level of continuity crazy.

But. That doesn’t mean I expect everything to be mapped out for me. The fact that Hawkeye has a secret family (Reason 5) does  _not_ throw me. Why?

  * _One:_ NOTHING CONTRADICTS THIS IN THE EARLIER NARRATIVE. Sing it from the rooftops: CLINTASHA WAS  _FANON_. It was persistent fanon; it was logical fanon. But it was fanon.
  * _Two:_ Clint Barton is a  _spy_. The fact that he was a secret family makes him a  _better spy_ than we’ve been shown, not a worse one. It’s a character plus.
  * _Three:_  They didn’t come out of nowhere. Hawkeye has a family in certain variations of the comics. And I fear for them in  _Civil War_ because of this.



Sometimes, the narrative will surprise us. These films are storyboarded into the future, but there are HUGE things that will be changed from now until  _Infinity Wars_. These are dynamic properties that will reflect the creative vision of the people who are working on them. As long as they don’t wipe out the beautiful continuity, I’m  _excited_ for the surprises.

  * **Also, demand for _less_  continuity **



One of the most hilarious things about the “12 Reasons” articles is that the author is  _pissed_ that Clint’s family and the Bruce/Natasha romance weren’t shoe-horned into an earlier film but sees no problem in being  _furious_ that AOU set up all the other Marvel movies (Reason 11). WHICH IS IT? There is a happy medium, but I think we as a fandom need understand how  _difficult_  it is to hit that mark.

  * **Conflating opinion and fact**



Brucenat doesn’t work for you. Okay. But it  _does work_  for other moviegoers, so…sorry? The fact that the two people you want to kiss don’t kiss and another pair of people do kiss instead does not make or break a Marvel movie. These aren’t romcoms.

  * **Coddling the Characters**



Tony makes a bad call in AOU. Bruce makes a threatening remark to someone who abused him. The characters are —  _gasp_  — flawed! 

The fact that Tony is “the bad guy” (Reason 1) in AOU is what gives the villain interest. The critique of the villains (Reason 9) is definitely valid; Marvel has a noted problem with villains. Having Ultron reflect the worst instincts of arguably the most fleshed-out character in the MCU is a decent shortcut toward creating a villain that has resonance for our heroes (the same shortcut was used with Loki in TA), though I agree the marketing did screw the pooch on his level of terror.

It’s  _great_  that the morality of the Avengers (as an entity, as individual heroes) are called into question.  _That’s the interesting part_. Ultron said it, humans, “Rise until the fall” but they also  _rise again_. We need to see our heroes get pushed to the breaking point and fail and disappoint so that when they  _don’t_ we are amazed. Tony creating the thing he dreads is about dark as Disney will let this go, so far.

  * **Not appreciating the nuances when we get them**



That the writer called  _setting up_ the fundamental disagreement between Tony and Steve “blowing its wad” has no logic to it. We as an audience are now prepared to see these two characters — who are  _friends —_ get into a  _huge disagreement_  while  _still caring about each other_. We need that base for  _Civil War_. The fact that it’s seeded in AOU is a  _good thing_. Just ???? to all of that.

That the writer hated the Scarlet Witch subplot is another ???? for me. Her powers are the  _reason_  we got so much juicy character work that wasn’t pure telling (as in TA). It did set up the Hulkbuster bit (which a lot of people really enjoyed) but it  _also_  gave us some much-needed character motivations. 

  * **Too much hype**



I think, ultimately, the reason that AOU gets hate is because it’s been built up in too many people’s minds. Films like  _Guardians of the Galaxy_  and _Ant-Man_  are a breath of fresh air because people haven’t been writing thousands of words of fan fic and speculative meta going into these movies. Not that fan interaction isn’t  _awesome_ ; but people get attached to their own interpretations and then they get disappointed. It’s going to happen. 

So that’s my unsolicited opinion on AOU hate. Now I’ll go answer your  _actual_ question, Anon!


	55. The Avengers vs. Age of Ultron

anonymous said:  
Hi! I'm a big fan of your analysis and your opinions, thank you very much for sharing them! I liked to read you when you talk about AoU, is refreshing not read negative-irrational opinions. Could I ask you about it? Differences between TA and AoU. Thus in general. AoU is a bit darker and complex, and I think is focused more on the characters? I really don't understand the hatred the movie received, it's very interesting and enriching!

This is so nice, Anon, thank YOU for reading all my ramblings. Sorry I didn’t answer this right away; I had to rant about the hate ([this post](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/124584395850/a-note-on-aou-hate)) and then I wanted to give your question some thought. :)

There are a lot of differences between TA and AOU, as you point out. And I do agree with you; overall, I prefer AOU and I think, of the two films, it will hold up the best upon repeat viewings because it is the more interesting film.

Here are some differences between TA and AOU that strike me:

**Thematic Questions**

  * _TA_ : How will the team get together? Can this disparate group work together? Will moviegoers embrace the superhero team up?
  * _AOU:_  Are heroes killers or saviors? What is the cost of superheroism to society? What is the difference between creating a safety system out of fear rather than out of hope? Can anyone really be saved?



I definitely agree that AOU has more darkness and more complexity. I really like the Frankenstein themes and the questions the film raises about the negative consequences of a world that has to rely on superheroes. The Avengers, who have  been on a high (“Do you think your men can hold them?” “They’re the Avengers”) are  _questioning themselves_ , which is  _huge_ for character development. 

**Character Development**

  * _TA:_ Who are these characters? What are their motivations? How will the bounce off each other?
  * _AOU:_  What are the team dynamics? How have they grown? What are their regrets? What have they sacrificed to be heroes? What have they gained? Should they continue to fight or not?



Both films are character-driven, but  _AOU_  is willing to let the characters be even more flawed than  _TA_. In  _TA,_ everyone has moments of doubt, but those moments are intensified in  _ˆAOU_. I love that. 

We  _need_  loss and shake ups and screw ups. We need the Old Guard to shift for the New Guard. We also need to see the  _cost_ of being a superhero, so that we’ll feel glad for the new characters but also a sense of dread. What will they have to give up to be Avenges?

**Big Action Moments**

There aren’t as many Big Hero/’Merica, Fuck Yeah! moments in AOU because this is the 11th movie. We’re in the  _Empire Strikes Back_  of the narrative (a very deliberate homage), so we need to lose some of the wonder of this world and start dealing with the consequences — injury, death, and sacrifice, both physical and mental. 

There are a lot of valid criticisms of AOU; it is too short and it uses a lot of dialogue-heavy shortcuts. It is not, however, a bad film or an uninteresting one. It makes me excited for the back half of the MCU!


	56. Bruce/Natasha is NOT Abusive, Version 1000.0

**Constant, Never Ending Hate in Positive Brucenat Tags:**  Brucenat is abusive because Natasha needs to control everything, and she can’t control the Hulk. That’s why she was so scared of him in  _The Avengers_ , and she can never, ever work past that fear. He attacked her, after all! She wouldn’t want Bruce’s trust after all that, and they have nothing at all in common. She was probably was lying to him anyway. She would be much more suited to whoever, because there is nothing problematic about  _those_ relationships! Brucenat came out of nowhere, anyway, LOL, gross.

 **Me:**  Yes, because having to control people is such a healthy character trait that she shouldn’t at all work on for her own personal growth. And the lullaby, which Natasha develops  _with_ Bruce,  _with_  his consent, isn’t at all demonstrative of Natasha learning how to overcome her fear of the Hulk by working  _with_ him in a mutually beneficial way. It doesn’t at all represent a step in the right direction for the character in terms of  _not_  being “comfortable with anything” and, instead,  _being a hero_ , not the whipping woman for whatever dirty deed needs done. In fact, she was  _lying_  about her feelings for Bruce, just to control him.  _Yep, the Black Widow will never be anything more than a manipulative monster._

And the Hulk — which is one part the consequence of a brilliant scientist who wanted to protect soldiers from radiation poisoning so much that he risked his bodily safety and one part the manifestation of an abused child who was scared and angry and self-loathing because he was too weak to save his mother from his father’s wrath — deserves to be shunned and feared forever. Even though we expect Bruce to use the monster to fight on the Avenger’s side when the narrative calls for it, his heroic arc isn’t worthy and he should develop any sort of real agency over the change.  _Yep, the Hulk will never be anything more than a destructive monster._

And Bruce and Natasha’s character arcs aren’t  _at all_  compatible. They don’t both share a need to atone for their past sins. They don’t both have terrible childhoods and destructive  _and_ self-destructive tendencies. They both aren’t huge cynics who are also big old dorks who tell bad jokes (”I’m here to pick up a fossil”) and nerd out over science/tech (Nat knew  _exactly_  what mission Sam had been on). They are never shown in  _AOU_  supporting each other. They don’t both don’t want to escape from the violence around them, the violence they perpetuate. They don’t trust each other, even when they say they do. Bruce isn’t the only person in the MCU to ever tell Natasha she’s done enough good, she deserves to be free. Natasha doesn’t believe in Bruce enough to throw him off a cliff and still expect the Hulk to go be a hero with her.  _Yep, Bruce and Natasha will never be able to relate to each other, never be able to challenge each other to be their best selves._

Nope, it’s all abuse.

And the fact that the Hulk attacked Natasha the way he did during  _The Avengers_  has  _nothing_ at all do with the fact that the Mind Stone was clearly bringing out the worst instincts in everyone in the previous scene.  _Yep, that whole subplot was just a red herring._

And we can totally forgive that Clint was sent to kill Natasha on Fury’s orders or that Bucky terrifies the shit of Natasha in  _CA:TWS_  after shooting her, shooting Fury, and shooting her again for the sake of Clintasha and Buckynat.  _But God forbid we ever forgive Bruce for the Hellicarrier scene._  Never mind that the Hulk hesitates. Never mind that Bruce apologizes. Never mind that Natasha, ever the pragmatist, forgives him. 

And we can forget that Natasha owes Clint and Steve her life and the weird, emotionally manipulative implications of  _that_  for the sake of Clintasha and Romanogers. And we can hate on Natasha and Bruce finding comfort in each other’s shared history because it’s an outlet for Bruce’s man pain, but swoon over the fantasy of Natasha helping Bucky through his pain for the sake of Buckynat. 

And we don’t mind at all, for the sake of Romanogers, to accept that Natasha and Steve have developed a friendship over the years, even though we didn’t get to see any of that. We don’t mind at all that Natasha suddenly cares about Steve’s love life or flirts with him or asks for his trust, when she never did any of those things in  _The Avengers_.  _But we would rather die that allow the same off-screen development for brucenat. Ew._

In conclusion, stop. Stop the concern trolling. Stop the hypocrisy. Enjoy your ships! Be sad that yours didn’t go canon! Just don’t pretend mine is somehow wrong or gross.


	57. brucenat + Mark and Scarlett

anonymous said:  
hi you lovely person. could i ask you for your thoughts about a particular brutasha aspect? i just watch many interviews of Johansson and Ruffalo, and i'm truly surprised of how both of them are so resounding to define the relationship as "impossible". i know is not precisely a easy one, but idk, is interesting!

Hi, Anon! Definitely interesting! I love watching the Fluffalo/ScarJo interviews. They’re so goofy together.

If we’re thinking of the same interview, it goes something like this:

> **Interviewer:**  How would you describe the Hulk/Widow romance?  
>  **Mark:**  Impossible.  
>  **Scarlett:**  Why do you have to be so cynical?  
>  **Mark:**  Impossible but desirable.

And, personally, the angst lover in me is  _so satisfied_  by that description. 

It’s impossible in a number of ways:

**Impossible to the characters:** These are characters who have, in essence, decided romantic love is not for them. 

  * **Bruce**  leaves Betty (as he always does, along with any other woman he’s paired up with in the comics. It’s 100% his MO) because  _he can’t have this._ The kids, the stability. He is the living example of  _everyone creates the thing they dread._ He knows all to well the violence that can tear apart the domestic. He fears being that violence, always has — even before the Hulk. It’s part of his legacy of abuse.
    * **But desirable:** Bruce is a big ol’ ball of fluff who craves stability, safety. Falling in love with his bodyguard? Yeah, that makes total sense.  _It’s not Natasha he doesn’t trust_  — by letting her do the lullaby, he’s accepting that she can take care of herself when it comes to the thing he’s most afraid of: himself. Bruce has fantasies — lying on a sun-drenched beach, turning brown instead of green, with Natasha beside him. He’s very good at punishing himself, but he doesn’t want to anymore. When he looks at Natasha, he fantasies about the future. 
    * [As an aside, can we talk about the inherent sexism in the lack of bitching about, ‘Why would Banner love Natasha???’ People bring up Betty, but what they don’t do is attack Bruce as being OOC for wanting Natasha. That either means they get it and think it’s right for the character, or they’re just accepting the narrative that all men want hot chicks, no explanation necessary. For shame.]
  * **Natasha**  isn’t as hard as to believe that _love is for children_ , but I bet she believed that at one point in her life. She never got to be a child. The Bartons and, to a lesser extent, her SHIELD family have cracked that icy exterior. She believes in love, but other people’s love — the Bartons, finding Steve a romance while dismissing romance for herself ( _make something up_ ), standing outside Fury’s circle of trust. She’s forever been an outsider looking in. 
    * **But desirable:** By the time AOU comes around, all her covers have been blown and Natasha is trying to live life as herself. An Avenger. An aunt. A friend. She wants to be those things, and she wants a romance for herself. That’s why I find her romantic subplot with Bruce (with  _anyone,_ were she the purser, really) to be so empowering. She’s a woman concerned with her own happiness. She’s taking her place in the world as a hero  _and_  as a person who wants to build a life with another person. 
    * [As and aside, can we talk about how women concerned with their own happiness get shit on by  _everyone._ They’re too selfish for the Cult of Womanhood people. Their goals are never strong enough for the Independent Women Don’t Need No X people. Women — and female characters — are judged and found wanting far, far more often than they are celebrated. For shame.]



**Impossible to the narrative:**  There are consequences to being a hero.

  * **Bruce and Natasha**  both have more soul-searching and journeying to go on before they can commit themselves to a fulfilling relationship. At this point in the narrative, they want different things for themselves. Bruce wants peace and a life away from violence for them both. Natasha wants them both to earn their happy ending by _finishing the job_  and  _being heroes_. They’re both right, so they  _don’t every time get what they want_.
    * **But desirable:**  At the end of AOU, both of them still want the other;  _wish you were here_  is a sentiment that speaks to both of them. They sacrificed each other, but the power of that sacrifice is in how much it hurt to have to do it. 



**Impossible in the future:**  As Scarlett puts it, these are characters with a greater destiny. 

  * **The Infinity War** is coming, and they will have to be heroes. One or both of them might die (I mean, I hope to the Allfather they don’t but if you want quick proof of Thanos’s might, have him  _tear the Hulk apart_ without blinking). Happy endings might be in short supply, and this franchise may follow me to my grave so endings of any kind might be moot. 
    * **But desirable:** If Marvel is in the business of happy endings, having the Black Widow and the Hulk — the two most outsider Avengers — finding solace in each other would be resonant and well-supported by AOU.



Now, my personal preference is ANGST NOW, FLUFF LATER. I want the Impossible-but-desirable happy ending for these two. I’ll keep my fingers crossed, but if it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen.

Thanks for the great question, Anon!


	58. Natasha Romanoff + Headcanons

## Natasha Romanoff: Headcanons, vol. 1:

1\. Natasha is particularly proud of her skills in computer programing because they are majority self-taught. Other self-taught skills include those involving critical thinking. The Red Room made her to be an assassin and a spy, dependent on their organization; she made herself into a one-woman army.

2\. While undercover at Stark Industries, Natasha manages to infiltrate JARVIS’s system, which is how, a year later, Phil Coulson is able to override JARVIS’s advanced security and enter Tower. Out of that experience, she and JARVIS have developed a rapport. Tony is annoyed — bonus.

3\. SHIELD assigns Natasha to take down the Rising Tide before they became a threat, but Natasha convinces Fury to let them operate under SHIELD surveillance. She joins the group under an alias and outsources some of her more tedious info collection projects.


	59. Natasha Romanoff + Gamora

anonymous said:  
Gamora and Natasha Romanoff are very, very similar characters ... what do you think about that?

This is a great topic, Anon! The only thing that I regret about  _Guardians_  is that there wasn’t enough time dedicated to developing Gamora’s character. I hope that gets rectified in the sequel, because she’s interesting all all get-out!

She and Black Widow fulfill similar archetypes as badass female assassins turned superheroes. I think there are nuances to distinguish them, though. Here are a few I can think of right now:

  * It’s implied that Gamora has known from day one that she is among enemies and has had to do what she’s done to survive. She’s taken no pleasure in killing (preferring to do it quickly) and has used what information she’s gleaned “undercover” to save people when she can. Natasha, on the other, was raised to be an assassin and took that as her place — even going so far as to make a name for herself as an assassin independent of the Red Room (at least, that’s how I read her backstory). She, therefore, has more conditioning to get rid of.


  * Gamora was trusted as part of a family. She’s Thanos’s favorite daughter, so he probably doted on her in a weird evil way. Natasha’s training probably had a lot to do with de-emphasizing family bonds in order to place the state and the mission as the highest good. They would, therefore, have slightly different ideas of loyalty.


  * Gamora has been altered physically a lot, which must have been an excruciating and de(human)izing process. Natasha, of course, was sterilized and her body turned into a weapon as well, but the physical alterations are not quite as extensive as Gamora’s.


  * Gamora is pretty naive when it comes to, ah, romance (she get’s really uptight about the ‘pelvic sorcery’) so I don’t imagine she used sexuality as a weapon much past using her looks to distract people (like she does with Quill) when they first meet. I imagine Natasha used this tool far more.


  * Gamora remembers her family, the one that Thanos et. al. took from her. She has a very idea of what kind of person she could have been, what kind of life she could have had if he had not taken her. Natasha is a blank slate to herself, and I think that’s one of the key differences between them. Gamora is a warrior woman, she has her own code of honor. Natasha does what’s needed to be done, because sometimes the world needs monsters to save it.


  * Gamora would win in a physical fight, no contest, unless Natasha got the jump on her and played really dirty.



All that said, MORE SCREEN TIME FOR BOTH, PLEASE!


	60. Ultron + Vision

[ ](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/image/127001921500)

Sorry for sitting on this so long, Anon! I’ll just touch briefly on what you said, which I totally agree with!

**Ultron (Destructive)**

I love that Ultron  _is_  Tony Stark in personality but also shares Bruce’s philosophy. I think that the movie touches on Bruce’s influence subtly (Natasha’s looks of significance after certain Ultron lines, remembering to blame him at Clint’s, etc.) and it could have done more to look at Bruce’s guilt over Ultron. But, to be honest, we got a lot of Bruce Banner guilt going on already. 

I think the reason Ultron is so flawed is because it represents two terrible ideas for security — 1. The idea that threats are not nuanced and can be met with pure force and 2. Humans are bad and need to be protected from themselves. The combination of these two things are what bring about tyranny and destruction.

**Vision (Constructive)**

Vision is the direct opposite of this. 1. He’s created to deal with a specific threat with a specific plan in mind and 2. He’s created in the spirit of ingenuity and evolution, which is where he gets his love of doomed humanity. 

**The Balancing Act**

In both cases, 1. Ties into Tony’s arc and 2. Ties into Bruce’s. Both of them have the capacity to be supervillans (and the backstories to match), but their destructive sides (Ultron) and their constructive sides (Vision) balance them out. That’s humanity in a nutshell right there.

Ugh, if only we had a longer cut of this film so that people would see the nuances instead of complaining about the overabundance of quips.


	61. Tony Stark: Good Character, No So Good Dude

 

 

[ ](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/image/127005940525)

Sorry again for the long wait! Tony Stark isn’t my favorite character for whatever reason, but I do agree that he is  _interesting all all get out_ and a  _really well-developed character_.

Tony Stark is a mess. Tony Stark is generous to a fault. Tony Stark is pithy and annoying. Tony Stark is well-meaning and charming. I love that!

This [article](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fbirthmoviesdeath.com%2F2015%2F05%2F12%2Fearths-mightiest-monsters-the-character-arcs-of-avengers-age-of-ultron&t=MzcyMzE1MzdkNzRjNmQ4NDQxNDViZTAyNDJhZWJhODY1NzkyNGFhNSxwUm91Mk9haw%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F127005940525%2Fsorry-again-for-the-long-wait-tony-stark-isnt-my&m=1) explains really well where Tony is at the end of Iron Man 3, which can be a bit confusing. It basically boils down to the fact that the suits he makes after the Battle of New York are shit. He’s trying so hard to battle his PTSD that he doesn’t realize that he’s doing more harm than good (sound familiar?). He needs to reach out to his friends for help and, once he does, he’s able to save the day (again, familiar).

Tony cycles through this problem of self-isolating out of fear and learns a little bit more each time.

Iron Man to Iron Man 2 he learns to give a shit. Iron Man 2 to The Avengers he learns how to be stable. The Avengers to Iron Man 3 he learns that he needs to step up as a hero. Iron Man 3 to Age of Ultron he learns that he can’t do it all, which is where the Iron Legion and Ultron/Vision come in. 

Between Age of Ultron and Civil War I’m hoping he learns that  _oversight is good_ , which is why he takes the government side. He’s not a hypocrite; he’s  _learning_.

I love that they’re giving Tony a valid side in Civil War. Because you know what? Oversight  _is good_. Tony needs oversight and so do the Avengers. The morality comes with what that oversight will look like.

 

 

 

 

 

**Tony Recruited Peter as a Child Soldier**

Er, what? This is a comic book movie. It’s a fantasy movie. It’s a convention of the genre for an older mentor to bring in a young fighter to get the job done. If you think Tony is disgusting for bringing Peter in — who he knows has super strength and endurance —  _not to fight but to contain a person Tony knows and trusts would never seriously harm someone who is not evil_ , then how do you enjoy, like, any media ever?

By these standards, Yoda teaching Padawans is dangerously immoral. Professor Xavier might as well be running the Red Room. Dumbledore should be tried for war crimes. 

In the real world, by law, most countries do not raise or recruit people under 17 to fight wars. Police do not train teenagers as taskforce operatives. 

But in fantasy and science-fiction? YA literature is  _built on that trope._ Even Katniss is never like, “Hey, we’re fighting the Capitol because they’re killing kids. Maybe I should bow out of this war because I’m a kid.” Nooooope. How then could she grow as a person and find herself through war and violence and bloodshed? Yeah, if you look at this trope too hard it’s gross. 

But it’s pervasive. Kamala Khan and Peter Paker and the goddamn Power Puff Girls  _should not be doing what they are doing if real world standards could apply_. But they’re heroes! We love it. We buy all the things to see that story.

So pretending that Tony’s decision to involve Peter is somehow beyond the pale is really disingenuous. 


	62. Natasha + AoU Nitpicks

Let’s deal with one more complaint about Natasha Romanoff in AOU, shall we?

**Complaint: OMG, _why_  does her suit light up? She’s a spy! That’s so stupid!  
**

**Explanation: She’s not a spy anymore she’s _an AVENGER._ FFS.**

The glowing blue lights? That’s what powers her Widow’s Bite gauntlets and her new stick deals. They make her more formidable on the battlefield, which is where she fights now because, again, she is an Avenger.

You want Black Widow to be considered the equal of the big three plus Hulk? EMBRACE THE LIGHT UP SUIT AND MOCKINGBIRD STICKS. It’s a step in the direction of making her viable in Infinity Wars. You think Thanos is going to be impressed with a couple of Glocks and the little bit of power going through her original gauntlets? Yeah, no.

You want Black Widow to get her due and have a popular toy line? EMBRACE THE LIGHT UP SUIT AND MOCKINGBIRD STICKS. It’s a step in the direction of giving her a marketable look with interesting accessories that, like, kids want to play with.

_More complaining about complainers under the cut because too much salt can be bad for you._

Counter-complaint: Oh, but what if she needs to sneak around? That’s one of her things!

Counter-explanation: She makes it not glow. When the gauntlets aren’t on, the power lines in the suit are dark red. And when they’re powered up and the bad guys have noticed? That means they’re already dead.

Counter-complaint: What if she actually needs to do some spy craft?

Counter-explanation: She’s going to need a hell of a lot more than a non-glowing suit because she has been on TV and her shit is all over the internet. People know exactly who the hell she is. Better hope she kept that photosynthetic veil.

**What the complaint is actually saying: I have this idea of who Natasha is and I what that idea to be in perpetual stasis because I love and understand her character so much!**

**What I’m actually saying: …Reevaluate.**

Everyone seems to love Nat in CA:TWS, but I’m pretty sure they blackout during the end of the movie where she, like, walks away from Fury to go figure her shit out. I honestly think people fell in love with how she is presented (random obsession with finding Cap a date and all) and ignore every bit of character development she has. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be losing their collective minds over how “ooc” she is in AOU when actually she’s the natural progression of CA:TWS Nat. 

I will never be over this. Sorry.


	63. brucenat vs. buckynat

** anonymous said:**

**Hey! I'm curious what your view is on Nat/Bucky which was a thing in the comics and something some shippers hope for. If you think the writers might decide to go that route instead of Brucenat ( </3). Trying to think logically, I don't think they would--not when people complain that Nat has been 'passed around' (+Chris & Jeremy calling her a slut). But then again, I'm the person who hopes that the online rants don't affect the writers' plans (Brucenat <3). PS: Your blog is fantastic.**

Well, thank you, Anon! I appreciate the feedback and the question. I’ve been sitting on another meta prompt regarding Bucky, so I thought I’d tackle them both at once.

**General Thoughts on Bucky Barnes**

The MCU, overall, has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to interesting characters. The story of a person who’s always stood up for the little guy (literally Steve) going to war, being captured and experimented on against his will, giving his life to the mission and his best friend, becoming a brainwashed, cryogenically frozen cyborg assassin, and then overcoming his conditioning through the power of friendship is a pretty damn good story. That said, even knowing his trajectory, whenever I’m watching  _Captain America: The First Avenger_ , I only have eyes for Peggy Carter. 

I recognize that Bucky is super interesting, I think the actor is pretty good-looking, but I’m with the second anon — his popularity does seem a bit excessive. I find it so :/ when I see bitching about how Natasha’s storyline is “reduced to brucenat” (which is NOT the case) in AOU followed by super bullshit moaning about how Steve isn’t thinking about Bucky every second he’s onscreen in AOU. So…a man obsessing about a man in a romantic context is desirable character-wise, but a woman “obsessing” about a man in a romantic context is character-ruining. Uh-huh, sure. Okay. 

[In general, there are all these super weird inconsistencies about the way MM ships are celebrated and MF ships are denigrated (while FF ships fight for visibility). It’s weirdly fascinating, and I’d love to read some meta about it (especially if it includes POC treatment), if anyone has any recommendations.]

Of course, the fan reaction is nothing against the character. I’m interested in seeing where the Bucky storyline goes in CA:CW.

**Potential for Bucky/Natasha in the MCU**

As the first anon says, having Bucky and Natasha get together now that brucenat has been established would be like a self-fulfilling prophesy — Natasha has not been “passed around” as people accuse, but it would be uncomfortable to see her in another romantic relationship after AOU. Plus, as is abundantly clear, I am brucenat af.

But, let’s imagine that brucenat didn’t happen in AOU and isn’t in the cards. Would I be cool with a Bucky/Natasha storyline? I mean, as long as Natasha is in the driver’s seat in terms of the relationship (i.e., it’s portrayed as something she  _actively desires)_ then sure. I know in the comics that Bucky and Nat have a whole history in the Red Room that would be interesting to explore and they do have a lot in common as former brainwashed baddies. 

For me, the idea of Bucky being one of her trainers and them having a romance during the Red Room years is compelling at the same time as it is repelling. Lots of potential there, but it would have to be done just the right way for the squick to go away.

Even if they omitted that backstory, CA:TWS does give a little window for the ’shippers — Natasha actively pursued the Winter Soldier after he almost kills her in 2009. That’s some good fic fodder right there. 

Otherwise, though, Bucky/Natasha in the MCU would have some major disadvantages.

1\. All Bucky does in CA:TWS is try to kill Natasha, and she’s absolutely terrified of him. Of course he’s brainwashed, but nobody gives Bruce the benefit of the doubt in the Helicarrier scene. Bruce and Natasha have scenes in TA where they are honest, playful, accepting, etc., but what’s been portrayed of Bucky and Natasha is just one-note kill or be killed. That can be improved on, of course, but it’s a lot shakier ground than brucenat but still I see all kinds of “b*ckynat would’ve made more sense” nonsense in the tags. It’s only justification is the storyline in the comics, which I’m sure is very good but is not established in the MCU.

2\. That criticism we always get about Natasha being a prop for Bruce’s man-pain? Yeah, it’s not a thing and I’m positive there are writers out there who could make a Bucky/Natasha storyline work where the two are sharing their pain equally and helping each other surmount it as equals. However. Bruce has been the Hulk for a number of years now; Bucky is just now ridding himself of his Winter Soldier conditioning. That definitely makes it harder for Bucky and Natasha to come to each other on any kind of even footing. Bucky is also just starting on his journey of reclaiming his identity. Natasha, who is nearing the end of her journey, has enough trouble wrangling Bruce at the middle of his journey, never mind someone who is just starting out. 

3\. If Bucky/Natasha had or did happen in the MCU, I would be terrified that Natasha would get the Uhura treatment. I love me some Spock/Uhura, but that ship — despite being cute af and canon — gets shit on constantly by the very vocal Kirk/Spock shipper majority. Maybe I’m cynical, but I can just imagine the bloodbath in the tags if Bucky/Steve shippers had an axe to grind against Natasha. Or, at the very least, super dismissive posts about Natasha getting in the way of true love or just being a cover or whatever else they want to say to prop up their ship at the expense of a super interesting, super strong female character (totally projecting my Uhura feels onto Nat here).

Now. None of this should be misconstrued as ship hate. I don’t hate that ship at all, and I can definitely see the potential for a really interesting exploration of themes of violence/brainwashing/identity, etc. IMO, I just don’t think it would work in the MCU at this juncture. I will cop to getting pretty salty when people bombard the brucenat tags with accusations of abuse while throwing b*ckynat out as a better option when all the same criticisms and more can all be leveled against that ship.

Thanks for the really interesting meta prompt, Anons!

 

 

 

 

Natasha + Bucky (+ Bruce)

The newest clip from CA:CW has Natasha and Bucky going toe-to-toe and, with his hand on her throat, she tells him, “You could at least remember me.”

I have many thoughts on this.

**1) The continuity lover in me is so happy that the thread from CA:TWS of Natasha trying to find Bucky is getting pulled again here.**

I can definitely see Natasha being more adamant about finding the Winter Soldier because he was perhaps one of her trainers. And this raises the question — is it more than a coincidence that the move she does on him in the clip is the same move that she does on the faceless mook in the Ultron flashback? The little things give me so much joy.

**2) I totally dig that Natasha’s layers are being pulled away incrementally.**

I can also definitely see Natasha not being entirely forthcoming about her history with the Winter Soldier to Steve. That makes me like her characterization   _more._  She plays everything close to her chest and crumbs out details as only needed. Her decision to share part of her painful history with Bruce is all the more heartbreaking in this light.

**3) Is “buckynat real”? Maybe and probably not.**

Could Bucky and Nat have had a professional relationship? Sure. Could Bucky and Nat have had a Red Room-era affair? Sure. Are they going to walk off into the sunset together after CW? No. Are they end game material? I mean, maybe if it turns out the Russos are diehard buckynat shippers. That’s the risk of having so many different voices writing for/directing these characters. But I’m not sweating it.

**4) Bucky and Natasha having a history, whatever that may entail, is interesting given the themes of the film.**

Natasha is on team Registration. Natasha, therefore, is tacitly agreeing that the Winter Soldier needs to be stopped. She’s been in his position before.  _She knows him_. But she still thinks that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Natasha’s stance makes Steve’s mission to save his pal more questionable and therefore more interesting.

**5) Is buckynat “better” than brucenat? PLEASE SPARE ME.**

What are people always bitching about brucenat for? 

**_It comes out of nowhere_. ** Natasha harboring deep feelings for Bucky Barnes — hmm, where could we have gotten that impression before? 

Not much there in that one line of dialogue about him being a ghost who tried to kill her. Hm, the fact that she doesn’t join Steve in finding Bucky other than handing him a folder isn’t exactly deep love territory. Neither, of course, is Natasha falling into adoration with Bruce while Bucky is out there vulnerable. 

To be fair, she and Bucky do have some exposited shared history. They share commonalities. And, yes, they were a thing in the comics (although that argument doesn’t seem to be working so well for poor Sharon).

So what’s a word to describe that kind of relationship? OH YES — THEY HAVE POTENTIAL. Just like Bruce and Natasha had potential before AOU. To pretend Bucky and Natasha — who speak for the first time in this clip — have anything more than that is absurd. 

**_It makes Natasha look weak_. ** Here we go again, Natasha is a potential love object for another male character. 

You know what? I’ve made my peace with this. Natasha is an alluring character. She’s not all things to all people all the time. The fact that so many men can look at her and say, “I can see myself falling for her,” is the mark of a great black widow.

**_It’s boringly hetero and white_.**  I see no difference. It’s actually kinda worse because the Russo’s  _know_  stevebucky is a thing. So if they paired Steve with Sharon  _and_  Bucky with Nat in the same movie, that might just be the most flagrant we’re-all-straight-here! copout I’ve seen since Troy got with Britta and Abed got a girlfriend.

**_There’s an age difference._** With literally everyone. Although, the Red Room trainer angle, if that is a thing in the movies, makes Winter Widow potentially…ew.

**_It’s abusive_. ** Buckynat shippers are rejoicing over their ship “going canon” as a man has a hand clamped around the woman’s neck. Um. Brainwashed-blah-blah, sure. Okay. Ship what you want to ship. I am enough of a vidder to recognize how awesome that scene is gonna look in slow-mo black and white, put over some angsty love song.  

But seriously. If I have to hear one more time that brucenat is the most abusive ship in the MCU I’m gonna go all Winter Soldier on somebody.


	64. AoU Deleted Scenes: Watch Your Six

OKAY! So. I could use about infinity more deleted/extended scenes, but the ones we get are  _so full_  of amazing character bits. Let’s start with the ones that broke my heart slightly less.

 **“Watch Your Six”**  is an extension of the scenes where Steve is talking to Maria and Clint and the team is together trying to figure out Ultron’s game. All the extra bits are  _so important_  exposition-wise, and I really wish it had stayed in (at least a version of it). 

**Part I: ScienceBros discuss Ultron**

 

> Bruce: [Watching footage of Ultron.] You can read vocal stress patterns, adrenaline spikes.
> 
> Tony: None of that was in the schematic we launched.
> 
> Bruce: We had a self-constructed learning spiral.
> 
> Tony: In his language database. He was supposed to learn slang. Not go insane.
> 
> Bruce: You’re assuming it did.
> 
> Tony: Look. We both know the guy has anger issues. Which, not to point a finger… [Points at Bruce.]
> 
> Bruce: We told him to solve the world.

THIS IS EVERYTHING. 

Here we get:  
1\. Marveling about Ultron’s humanity (needed more of that for us to buy it).  
2\. Tony denying that Ultron is their fault, because they didn’t code this.  
3\. Actual shared responsibility for Bruce. Tony is saying that these anger issues come from Bruce. What we see, actually, is that perhaps some of the philosophy did instead.  
4\. Bruce saying, hey, you’re assuming that Ultron’s programing got corrupted. Maybe it it didn’t. “We told him to solve the world.” Maybe that’s what he’s doing.   
  
Bruce — the angry, cynical part of him that  _isn’t_  deep down, isn’t all fluff — thinks that there is no solving the world. There’s no saving the world. There’s mitigating risks, breakthrough science/tech, and doctoring the wounded. But this fight never ends. The world doesn’t get solved, not with people as flawed as they are. Human beings either evolve or kill each other. Bruce wants the former desperately, but the latter has a lot more evidence behind it. 

 

 

 

More from  **“Watch Your Six.”**  

Once again, the few seconds of exposition here are so vital for character work. As an audience, we can parse a lot of this stuff out ourselves, but it’s so much more gratifying to see it in action. 

**Part II: Steve/Maria/Clint**

The Steve/Maria scene that’s available all over really underscores the notion of Ultron  _not_  going insane and actually doing what he was programed to do. Maria takes that stance, saying Ultron could be bring doing planes. But Steve denies it as anything related to peace. The “hang up my shield” bit is brilliant, and foreshadows Ultron’s dig as well. Steve goes pretty dark in TWS with his line, “I guess I just like to know who I’m fighting.” He  _prefers_ HYDRA to the uncomfortable corruption of everyday life. As a member of the greatest generation, he believes that war is hell but it’s also necessary to stop the evils that peace can hide right under people’s noses. He’ll start a Civil War.

The Steve/Clint scene adds a bit more onto Clint’s talk (there’s a part about a “nightlight”) to foreshadow the family more. There’s also slightly different wording about Clint’s contacts and Steve cracking the whip a bit more.

**Part III: Natasha/Rhodey/Tony**

We get more from Natasha here. She’s on the computer with Rhodey.

 

> Natasha: We’re getting ‘access denied’ on all basic information streams.
> 
> Rhodey: Yeah. You guys are definitely off the Pentagon’s Christmas list. Every country with a nuke is fighting off a cyber attack. War Machine is being deployed to the Middle East in case certain people start blaming each other instead of you.
> 
> Tony: Okay, well hold that thought. Let me overnight you a new encryption drive for you suit, in case Ultron wants in.
> 
> Rhodey: Gotcha, thanks.
> 
> Natasha: When you hear something, we need to hear about it, too.
> 
> Rhodey: Hey, that goes both ways. Watch your six.
> 
> Natasha: You, too.

Lots of great exposition — How the world is reacting, that the whole Pentagon is working on this, how Tony gets Ultron out of the suits, why War Machine comes in only later.

Plus, Natasha’s hacking skills are my favorite. I love that she’s immediately like, “Hey, I can’t get into the Pentagon. What’s this about?” She needs information to sustain and feed herself. I love that about her.

More soon!

 

 

And the final parts of  **“Watch Your Six”**  

**Part IV: Final exposition**

Thor mentions trying and failing to reach Heimdall (alluding to the possibility that he’s in danger or has been ordered by Odin/Loki not to respond). Nice loose end tied up.

**Part V: Talking Strategy**

 

> Tony: And he did a Banksy at the crime scene. Just for us.
> 
> Natasha: This is…good.
> 
> Bruce: No, that’s not good.
> 
> Natasha: He’s showing us his hand. Why send a message when you’ve just given a speech?
> 
> Steve: Strucker knew something that Ultron wanted us to miss.
> 
> Natasha: I bet he…yep. Everything we had on Strucker? It’s been wiped.
> 
> Bruce: And that’s good?

I like this extra bit because it shows a number of things: 

1\. How fast Natasha’s mind works the angles. She’s not asking a question, she’s making a point and Steve is following it (in the release it seems more like she’s following Steve). I like this dynamic much better.

2\. How out of his element Bruce is at these kinds of strategy meetings. He’s a genius and suspicious as anybody, but what he excels at is reading emotional undercurrents that get at grand schemes rather than the intricacies of plots, the way Natasha does.

3\. How much difference lies in the similarities in the way Bruce and Natasha look at the world. I love this exchange, tiny as it is. There’s a misunderstanding that gets cleared up. 

Natasha saying, “This is good,” seems to be echoing Maria. It strikes Bruce as blood thirsty. Bruce does not like that, so he contradicts it. Killing, no matter who is the one dying, is not good. It’s bad. It may be necessary, it may be something he wants to happen, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is a bad thing. 

Natasha isn’t offended by Bruce’s contradiction. She sails right on explaining herself. She’s not talking about blood thirst. She’s talking about getting the job done. Ultron deviated from the norm (not killing people) and showed his hand (assassination). By asking if that’s good, Bruce shows that he realizes he made a false assumption, and he’s trying to get on her train of thought. 

 

 

 

 

anonymous said:  
oh, it's a pity that Nat/Rhodey scene isn't in the theatrical version! i really, really like it! Team Iron Man begins :P I'm really curious to see them in scenes together in Civil War. I want more about a Nat/Rhodey friendship :) And also I'm very intrigued to see how is Nat dynamic with Vision (remembering her words in TA and how Hulk unnerved her by his unpredictable nature; so intrigues me a lot how she reacts to Vision!).

I totally agree, Anon! It’s sooooo good. I really like that Rhodey and Nat were paired up a couple times in AOU (they’re briefly chatting in a very friendly way at the party). Natasha did get Rhodey back his suit in IM2, and I’m pretty sure he’s the only male cast member in that whole movie not to objectify her. In the deleted scene, the fact that they know each other’s value really shines through. Can’t wait to see more of them being badass allies in CA: Civil War.


	65. AoU Deleted Scene: brucenat

When this scene was talked about way back in May, I knew it was going to break my heart. And it did. The character work and acting is so, so  _good_. 

For the record: I can see why the latter half got chopped off, and I’m glad it was. It is confusing and requires more depth and explanation to connect that scene to the Sokovia “rescue” scene. Once the scripted “fakeout Hulkout” idea was cut, Bruce was always going to end up in Sokovia giving Natasha that glorious little speech about how she’s done enough. Having Bruce reject and then accept her offer to run away together only for Natasha to reject it for different reasons requires two solid scenes for both of them to change their minds and there just wasn’t time.

That said, I actually love, love this character work. It captures Bruce and Natasha at a moment where they are both the best and worst versions of themselves.  _The angst of it all._ Lord help me. 

Essentially, I believe the deleted scene enhances their journey together rather than negates it. Let’s discuss.

 

 

 

> N: I had this thing put into my head. This dream. The kind that seems normal at the time. Seems right.  
>  B: What did you dream?  
>  N: That I was an Avenger. That I was more than what they made me.

Okay. God. “I had this thing put into my head.” Kill me. There’s  _so much_  there. This is Natasha underscoring the fact that, for good or for evil,  _she has not made active choices for herself_. Her dream of being an Avenger? She’s convinced herself in this moment that it was never her dream to begin with. She thought it was the right thing. But maybe it’s not? And the following line — “That I was an Avenger. That I was more than what they made me.” — that turns that on its head and makes us realize that, actually, maybe it is her dream and she just doesn’t think she’s good enough. And what’s so sad is that she can’t tell the difference.

 

 

 

> N: I want you to understand that, um, what we’re talking about, I never —   
>  B: Tasha. 

Again. A few extra words, and Natasha is breaking my heart even more.  _She’s never_. She’s never what? It’s pretty obvious that she’s telling Bruce that she’s putting herself out there in a way that she’s never done before with another person. With Clint and Fury, they offered her a mission and a place in their lives, and she accepted. With Bruce, she’s  _asking_  for a place in his life. She’s pursuing something she wants for herself. That isn’t something she does, and it’s scary as fuck for her.

And Bruce cuts her off. I don’t know if this is just my hearing, but in this version I hear “Tasha” and in the film version I hear “Natasha.” If I’m right, then I really love the softness the latter implies. Either way, Bruce is moved by what she’s saying, but it’s also agony for him. 

 

 

 

> B: Where can I go? Where in the world am I not a threat?  
>  N: You’re not a threat to me.  
>  B: Are you sure? Even if I didn’t just…In the future with me. I can’t ever…I can’t have this. Kids.  

It’s agony because this vibrant, young woman who deserves so much more  _is choosing him and he’s broken_. 

We hear a lot about how brucenat is bad because it’s just “a male fantasy of the geek getting the hot chick.” Sure, the bar scene has that element of “look at this beautiful woman, why is she into me?” and that’s adorkably cute. But that doesn’t even  _scratch the surface_  of the issues that are between them. Anyone who thinks that geek-hot chick is all there is to them needs to sit down with me right now so I can take you step by step through these amazing characters.  _That’s not all there is to their story_. If it were, I wouldn’t ship it as hard as I do. 

Bruce is terrified of Natasha’s love, because he doesn’t think he can handle it. He thinks of her future in terms of things that he wants but has categorically and systematically denied himself. He sees how much she loves the Barton children, how much the farmhouse brings her comfort. He wants her to have a home and kids and be at peace.

Loving him is a threat to her not because he might Hulk out on her  _but because of everything he cannot give to her._

B: Do the math, I physically can’t.  
N: Neither can I.

This part is exactly the same and that is so important. Natasha shares with Bruce that she can’t have this either. She was made to be a weapon. Mentally, physically — she was trained to kill and not to live. She wants to live however she can.

B: So we disappear?

Just like in the theatrical release, Bruce accepts Natasha here. Her speech  _moves him_. Bruce realizes just how much Natasha needs to leave, to escape the violence that has defined all thirty years of her life. He sees a need in someone else and wants to help her heal more than he hates himself. Just…oh, Bruce.

But then.

 

 

 

> N: We keep moving. And we don’t play circle of life. We just play.

Natasha’s proposition underscores that they’re going to run and hide. They aren’t going to try to make a family, of course, they’re going to do their own thing. But notice that her plan is not to do good in other places, like Bruce was doing in Kolkata. Instead, she wants them to “play.” It’s selfish. She deserves to be selfish, she totally does, but it’s not what she really wants or needs. It’s a hollow suggestion born out of intense pain and misery.

 

 

 

> B: And the dead?  
>  N: They’re dead.

It’s also the last thing Bruce Banner on a guilt spiral can even comprehend wanting. He asks her, essentially, “What about our pasts? What about the red in our ledgers?” And Natasha Romanoff — because she cannot get a grasp on her identity at this moment, because she’s disgusted at herself for thinking she could be a hero when she came from the Red Room — tells him, “Fuck it. It doesn’t matter. The dead don’t matter. We play.” Natasha wants to write herself over. It’s not the right call and not the one she’ll make later in the film. She’s hurting. It’s human, but it’s wrong.

 

 

 

> B: Not to me. Not ever.   
>  N: Bruce —  
>  B: Never.

In order to understand why Bruce is so adamant, let’s look back to a previous scene. How does Tony lure Bruce into creating Ultron? He appeals to the side of Bruce that wants to be “on a sun-drenched beach turning brown instead of green.” Bruce wants that. He wants peace, too. So he’s lured into creating Ultron. And it all goes wrong.

Unlike Tony, Bruce learns his lessons It might be the same lesson, it might be the wrong lesson, but he is nothing if not reactive to circumstances and events. Here, again, Natasha is trying to tempt him with the idea that he can walk away guilt-free. He can’t. He has to be vigilant. The dead are those he killed, but the dead is also his mother and the dead is also himself, the old Bruce who could be angry and self-destructive and happy and a father — the one that he’s had to bury to control the Hulk. 

So what does he do? He rejects his own weakness by rejecting Natasha’s vision of their future. Bruce is on board  _with leaving_. He’s on board with leaving  _with her_. He’s on board with leaving with her  _so that they can find some peace and solace in each othe_ r. He is emphatically not on board _with playing, with thinking they can rewrite who they are._ Bruce knows that’s impossible. He knows that’s  _dangerous._ Let’s not forget that this is a man with a temper. Natasha’s dismissive response — “they’re dead, let’s forget, let’s play” — pisses him off. 

 

 

 

> N: Wow. Well I guess, I, uh, better clean up then.  
>  B: Water’s cold.  
>  N: No shit.

Bruce is rejecting the plan, the messed up psychology behind the plan, not Natasha. But Natasha doesn’t get that. Natasha gets “you don’t deserve this, I don’t deserve this, because we’re monsters.” For the longest time, she’s thought the same of herself but  _she doesn’t want to believe that lie anymore_. She’s offended, so she misunderstands Bruce. She’s pissed off.

By reminding her the water’s cold, he’s trying to show her that he does care about her happiness and comfort. By telling him “no shit” she’s expressing how deeply his rejection has wounded her — but she’s still strong. For his part, Bruce does not express how much he wishes he could say yes to her, because he doesn’t want to mix his message.  _All the emotion he’s tightly controlling is what shows how much he cares about her and how much grief he’s in._

All of this is heartbreaking. But, even so, it’s not the end of their relationship potential. This is the middle. And what it does is underscore how amazing their journey is. 

Now. Of course there were scenes that needed to be reshot, but as far as we know the ending is the ending. I need to listen to the commentary to see if anything different was plan (the iTunes version doesn’t seem to have it? I’m mad). For now, let’s assume the trajectory was always the same.

 **Bruce**  creates the Vision. He trusts himself and his monster,  _doesn’t learn his lesson,_ and creates something unambiguously good. He also realizes, through Natasha’s kidnapping and Steve’s death speech, that, even if Natasha wants to run, that’s never going to stop her from putting her all into the mission. She doesn’t need to rewrite herself, but she does need to escape. She’s “done enough.” He’s erasing the miscommunication between them before. She’s his compelling reason not to lose his cool, and he believes that he can add positive value to her life.

 **Natasha**  goes to South Korea. She sits alone in her cell and, presumably, she thinks and plans. She understands the mission again. She realizes how important stopping Ultron and saving the city is to her. She doesn’t walk away when Bruce asks her, and she doesn’t let him, either. She realizes that she  _is_  a hero, the mission  _is_ good. Her dream of the Avengers  _is_  good. That things are worth dying for if she chooses to do so. That SHEILD can be what  _it’s supposed to be_. She’s found fulfillment in herself and reoriented. And she still wants Bruce, but she doesn’t believe she has to be selfish to do it.

But, of course, the timing is bad and both of them have a higher calling and different path they need to take to answer it.

To wrap up, IMO, showing deep psychological weaknesses and expressing that to each other in the extended scene complicates their relationship and deepens their connection in really interesting ways. I’m glad we got to see it, and the acting is phenomenal.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

** anonymous said: **  
**The more I see the alternative scene, the more I like it. It's very interesting and complex for both characters (for their own personas and for their connection). I also see a parallel with their later moment in Sokovia. Here is Nat who idealizes their future and tries to escape from the past (and from herself); and there Bruce is who idealizes their future and tries to escape from the present (and himself). In both times is the other who returns them to reality.**

I love the parallel you bring up, Anon! In both cases, one of them is making a choice that they both want  _for all the wrong reasons,_ so the other can’t follow.

  * In the extended scene, Natasha wants them to disappear because she wants to be someone else. Bruce is not about that.
  * In the Sokovia scene, Bruce wants them to disappear because he doesn’t trust himself. Natasha does.



In both cases, they make a different call for themselves and, therefore, for each other. And, as you say, return each other to reality.

I think motivations are so key in both scenes, so thanks for bringing that up!

I’m also with you on liking the scene more and more. I definitely have another big meta about it in the pipeline. I wrote ~1,000 words over breakfast this morning. If only I could write fic this fast!

 

 

 

 

 

** anonymous said: **  
**Ok, so here again the controversy (old friend). I understand some discomfort to the deleted scene about Nat, but I still maintain that the OOC accusation is not real. We must take into account her vulnerability, her situation at that time. Her vision isn't only a memory of what they did to her in the Red Room, but the belief and fear that she has always been an instrument without an own agency (even in the present moment). Like seriously, in that moment she's fucking scared of herself [1]**

**[2] and doubts about everything. Her whole life. Bruce is like her focus point. It’s important to analyse not only her words, but her gestures and emotions. Her face and her eyes are very representative. When we talk about how Nat is completely emotionally naked in this scene, it’s truth; so to me it’s not a surprise to see her so confused and torn. Bloody hell, how could she not be?!**

**[3] So the “she wouldn’t say that!” did not serve to me. With her emotional state, what matters are the facts, and she proves already more than once that, despite her emotional mess, that’s not dominate her.**

I totally getcha, Anon. I think Natasha  _is 100% out of character in that scene and that is purposeful and the justification for Bruce’s rejection._

She’s goes from true vulnerability and intimacy and realness — “still think you’re the only monster on the team?” — to trying on a different persona in the span of no time flat — “they’re dead.”

Natasha says things that she doesn’t mean or that she doesn’t realize at the time isn’t true for her  _all the time_. Love is for children,” she says to Loki. “Who do you want me to be?” she asks Steve, insinuating the truth doesn’t matter, that trust doesn’t matter. But when things fall apart, look at that, turns out  _it fucking matters_. Duplicity is part of her character. She’s not honest to others or to herself. Even if/when she wants to be. It’s  _hard for her_  to know what’s real and what’s a dream. So what does she do? She tries to retake control by rejecting everything she’s known and coming up with something entirely different.

But clean slates are not the answer to red ledgers, and Bruce knows that. He also knows when Natasha is selling him something false. Bruce lies, he does. But he doesn’t lie to himself, because  _he can’t_. “Not ever.” He doesn’t have that luxury. He has to be in control or he’s going to lose it. 

Of course, this moment of weakness from Natasha doesn’t last, it wasn’t meant to last. Presumably, if this scene had been left in the ending would have stayed. So somewhere between the farmhouse and her cell in Sokovia Natasha would have realized that this  _is_  her mission. Her dream of being an Avenger is  _hers_. We need a scene of that to sell this narrative and we don’t get it. That’s why I’m glad the end got lopped off. 

But I do think that this moment of weakness comes from a very real and understandable place inside of herself. Like you, Anon, I can see the fear that drove her to this moment (more about that in my long-ass meta coming up). She just opened herself up and called herself a monster. Instead of embracing it, this extra bit makes it clear she’s rejecting it in favor of a clean slate (now I’m getting shades of TDKR Selina Kyle in here, too. Lots of parallels/differences in those two stories). And that’s wrong. It rings false for the character,  _which is intentional_. Bruce hates it. I hate it. But also  _think it’s interesting_ , which is everything to me. And I love and respect diverse opinions! They make me think harder.

 

 

 

 

I’m home for the weekend and my little bro bought the AOU DVD, so I got to watch the commentary. 

Can I just say? Vindicated.

Joss explicitly states what I and a lot of people have been saying for months —  _the romantic subplot was meant to showcase Natasha Romanoff making the decision to be a hero._

Joss clarifies that in the commentary for the alternative farmhouse scene between Bruce and Natasha. And, boy, did Joss knew exactly how dark he was going with that one. 

As close as I could do:

> They both make decisions in the moment that are very hard for them. This is part of the idea that the dreams were there to tear them apart. To make him into his worst idea of a Hulk so he’d want to turn tail and run. And to make her realize that she didn’t want to be an Avenger anymore partially because that would make it more interesting when she’s literally the only one to stay with Cap, the only one of the originals who stays with the team.
> 
> The objections that people have had to this pairing I’ve discussed, but I think part of the issue is them not having seen this scene through. And I like where that led us, that open question, and that ultimately it’s the Hulk who makes the final decision. That Banner and the Hulk have resolved themselves enough that it’s the Hulk who makes what is a very cogent and intelligent and, in a way, heroic decision. And she herself makes a decision, you know, when she pushes him down a well in order to bring the Hulk out of him, that she — you know, after wanting to be with someone — decides, “No, I need to be a hero. I’m going to be sneaky, the way Black Widow would, in order to be heroic, the way Black Widow would.” And she gives up, you know, the dream of being a regular person. 
> 
> And all of that wouldn’t have the same register if this scene had played through, but at the same time from this moment the stakes get a little higher. And morally he basically tells her that she is a monster. He basically says, “You are not in the same place as me morally. And it’s never going to work because of that.” It’s such a slap. 
> 
> A line she has earlier at the bar, “Never say never,” is partially there because of the callback when he says, “Never.” I just love the ending of this.

Say one thing for Joss Whedon — that man is not afraid to make his heroes  _actually flawed_. Bruce throwing Natasha under the bus so he can cling to the moral high ground here is as shitty and awful as it is tragic and sad. All he has left after becoming his own worst nightmare is how much he hates himself for it; guilt and remorse are the only things he thinks he has to keep himself human. For Natasha to ask him to give that up is horrifying from his perspective. But, yeah, yikes, dick move, Banner.

But it’s important to note that Bruce still isn’t insinuating Natasha is a monster because she’s a killer and definitely not because she’s infertile. Bruce is on board with them running together seconds before she comes out with the “they’re dead” response — it’s that duplicity that sparks his anger.

It’s also important to note that these decisions are happening  _in the moment_. That they are meant to be emotionally fucked and to make the opposite calls later — Bruce telling Natasha she’s done enough; Natasha choosing to stay and be a hero.

I’m kind of wondering if the rumored alternative Hulk out scene was the originally drafted outcome of this scene? Like, Bruce rejects Natasha. Natasha is pissed. So in order to get him to Hulk out, she goes full-on decepticon and tells him she was always playing him anyway? I’m thinking if it were going to make Bruce that upset that Natasha would have toyed with him, then it’s likely that Bruce would have still rethought his rejection and came back for her. Just a thought.

At the end of the day, it’s more streamlined to lop off the end of the alternative scene, but it’s definitely interesting. And the Hulk out we get makes much, much more sense in terms of getting the Hulk to cooperate, but speculation is always fun.


	66. Steve Rogers: A Good Man

** anonymous said: **   
**Am I horrible for not WANTING to see any 'darker' sides to Steve's character? I mean, he's Steve Rogers. He's CAPTAIN AMERICA. He's the living incarnation of all that is good and right in the world, he makes other people better just by being exactly who he is, and I don't want that taken away from him in favor of the novelty of giving him a "dark side". Superheroes with a dark side are a dime a dozen in the MCU, but there's only one Captain America, you know?**

That’s an interesting take, Anon! Of course you’re not horrible! I can definitely agree that I don’t want a grimdark Steve Rogers. I want him to inspire people and lead and be sympathetic and wonderful. 

But I also think everything has a price, and I’m with Tony — I don’t trust a guy without a dark side.

For example, here’s a wonderful moment: in AOU, Steve says, “Not this rock with one person on it.” He’s willing to die for a single person. That’s so noble. But it’s also dark. Heroes are the ones who sacrifice. Steve sacrifices his idea of home to for his dream of working hard to better the world. He does this willingly and without complaint. I admire the hell out of him for that,  _even more so because of_  this built-in sacrifice. I also think that Steve can’t be perfect. He’s got to have blind spots. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t need a team and he wouldn’t be a real leader. 

But I definitely agree that Captain America needs to stand for something. I don’t need his name dragged through the mud or any grimdark trope like that. I just personally connect with a character better and root for that character more when that character is struggling with something inside him or herself.


	67. AoU + Mind Control

You know what I think isn’t getting talked about enough in all the renewed OOC claims/hate directed toward Natasha Romanoff because of the alternative farmhouse scene?

The point of Wanda’s visions is not to show them a bunch of symbolic imagery. The point is to  _make them afraid so that their fears will control them_. These aren’t just memories or visions that the team is dealing with. This is  _mind control_ that’s purpose is to  _make them self-destruct_.

So, in the farm scene, Thor, Steve, Bruce, and Natasha all give in, a little, to their most self-destructive tendencies. 

  * _Steve_ : God’s righteous man. He lets Tony pick a fight with him. He holds grudges against his teammates. He wants to leave the farmhouse and get back to the fight. He can’t sit down and rest, even for a moment.


  * _Thor_ : The man who wouldn’t be king, but doesn’t always take orders. He leaves to pursue a quest that frightens him without backup. He distances himself from the others and their petty fights with robots. Thor is a literal alien. There are worse horrors in the universe.


  * _Bruce_ : Self-hatred. And guilt and pain and exile. The Avengers  _need_  the Hulk to stop Ultron. He can tear about robots all day and they’ll never touch him. But he’s going to leave them, because he’s just embodied his worst fear. And he’s going to cling as tightly to control as he can.


  * _Natasha_ : Self-doubt. Who is she? Is she more than the assassin they made her? Is she an Avenger? Are the Avengers really the Avengers, are they better than SHIELD? Or are they just a dream that can’t be real, a dream that someone else put into her head?



Natasha waits for Bruce already having made a decision. She knows he has to leave. She doesn’t want to stay.

Is this her decision? Yeah, but it’s not the one that she makes later in the film after she’s had time to process. This is a decision that’s born out of pain and, yes,  _mind control_. It’s only been a few hours since Wanda. She’s not thinking clearly. So, yeah, she’s erratic and she’s emotional and she’s trying to convince Bruce to leave with her in a way that’s never going to work on him. She’s giving in to her most self-destructive tendency — lying about herself.


	68. Captain Hill: Thoughts

**anonymous said:**  
 **Suddenly I found myself shipping a little Captain Hill (Steve/Maria). What do you** thing **about their dynamic?**

Hi, Anon! I actually haven’t thought much about Captain Hill as a couple, but they do have an interesting dynamic! In all of their scenes together, there is an underlying tension due to their different outlooks on the world. Steve is, of course, the eternal optimist who always tries to see the best in people, while Maria is a very grounded pragmatist who makes decisions based on reality. She also isn’t afraid to call Steve out, nor he her, which makes for an even playing field.

Steve/Maria would have some of the same notes as Steve/Natasha — questions about loyalty, pragmatism over heroism, soldiers vs. spies. They’re also on opposite sides in the Civil War comic, as well. But since Maria represents SHIELD far more than Natasha does, the ship would be more thematically about American ideologies versus American institutions. That has some interesting potential to explore.

More than any ship, I really wish we knew more about Maria Hill. I love the deleted subplot in the Avengers that has Maria suspicious of the Avengers and Nick Fury. It really demonstrates how meaningful it is that the Avengers and, even more so, Nick Fury have earned her enduring loyalty. She had a couple cut scenes from TWS and AOU that are just so pivotal. I was really sad to see them go.


	69. Bruce Banner + Interest

So the newest argument against Bruce and Natasha is that it’s abusive because Bruce “shows no real interest in Natasha” during AOU. 

Counterpoints.

**1\. Bruce _does_  show interest. **

Mark Ruffalo isn’t romcoming it up, no, because  _this is not a romcom_. Usually when Bruce smiles there’s more than a pinch of sarcasm/bitterness behind it (see: “I thought Ultron was a fantasy”; “…you don’t wanna tell the team?”). The only time we see him genuinely enthusiastic is when he’s talking about Cho’s science (and notice how Natasha can’t keep her eyes off him then). 

But, man, when he’s talking with Natasha in the quinjet and at the bar that bitter smile turns fond and genuine so many times. There’s real light in his eyes. 

**2\. Y’all are disregarding Betty Ross. Like usual.**

As much as the haters preach about “why has everyone forgotten about Betty???” they sure are quick to forget about Betty when it doesn’t suit their aim. Bruce left her for the same reason he tries to reject Natasha: ”I can’t have this. Kids. Do the math, I physically can’t.” As much as it hurts him, he wants Betty to continue to have happiness with Leonard Samson (the man  _she chose to be with_  after Bruce left her the first time and  _who she makes promises to_  in the deleted TIH scenes). 

Wouldn’t it be way more of an affront to Betty if Bruce started out  _actively pursuing_ Natasha with no qualms? 

**3\. Bruce would be out of character if he showed to much interest in AOU.**

Bruce, because he had happiness with Betty, looks at the future in the picket fence kind of way. Natasha pushes back against that very narrow and traditional idea, bless her, and that’s when Bruce accepts a different kind of happiness (in the theatrical release; in the extended scene he temporarily rejects her for a much more complicated reason).

In the beginning of AOU Bruce is very much a man with a crush that he can indulge as long as it’s just play. He’s also a man who is “exposed, like a nerve” when he’s the Hulk — and the Hulk is clearly infatuated with Natasha. He’s absolutely going to try to play that down both to save his pride  _and_  to protect Natasha from crushing back on a man who, as he sees it, is a threat to her future happiness.

**4\. Again, Bruce _does_  show interest.**

The way he keeps look at Natasha in the lab scene. The way he approaches Natasha and  _starts the role play._ That expression after, “You both deserve a win.” The body language when he and Natasha are in their own little world at the party. The fact that he’s the one to realize that Natasha hasn’t taken a turn at the hammer lift. The way he smiles and flirts lightly with Natasha even though a second ago he was glaring himself down in the mirror with intense self-hatred. 

**5\. Even when he’s rejecting her, the pain of that is evident.**

Look at the way Bruce can’t maintain his distance when she’s opening up to him (”What did you dream?”). And the fact that the man who said, “Sometimes exactly what I want to hear isn’t exactly what I want to hear” forgets himself because his first instinct is to comfort Natasha — “I think you’re being hard on yourself.”

And how audible his breath becomes when she moves into his space. The way he grips her hand. The way he scrubs his face after he asks her, “Are you out of your mind?” (a genuine question — she’s been catatonic for hours, only to be roused by kids, the American Dream he can’t give her). 

And look at the way his eyes soften with regret when he says, “In the future with me.” Really watch his jaw working with suppressed emotion when Natasha is telling him about the Red Room. Look at the way his Adam’s apple bobs. When Natasha says, “Still think you’re the only monster on the team?” he exhales in a very emotional way, even if he’s repressing —  _because he has to, because he’s Bruce Banner and emotional repression is how he gets through the damn day._

[And in the alternative scene, we see that Natasha has the capacity to make him angry. That he’s not afraid to be his darker self around her. When Tony pokes at him, he cracks jokes (“I don’t think you’d like that very much.”) When Natasha lies to him, he gets angry. When Natasha comes at him with something as disingenuous as, “They’re dead,” he isn’t afraid to show her how much that hurts him. Bruce doesn’t treat Natasha like she’s fragile, because she’s not.]

**6\. Again, again, Bruce _does_ show interest.**

He sets himself up in a corner behind Natasha at the farm. He watches her interactions with Lila Barton intently. He is clearly anxious when she’s taken,  _but he can’t give into that_  because Natasha got taken  _doing her job_  and she’d want him to do his. 

**7. _He_   _clearly states his interest and intentions when he comes for her in Sokovia._**

Oh, right, and then there’s the part where he  _does the thing he fears the most —_ going back into a high-stress environment in the heart of a city full of civilians — in order to find Natasha and get her to safety. To tell her that she was right, their fight is over. To tell her, “I have a compelling reason not to lose my cool.”  

Oh right. That part.

**8\. Even after she pushes him down a well, the Hulk still treats her with infinite care.**

The Hulk and Bruce are very connected in the MCU. The Hulk likes who Bruce likes. Bruce comes out more after the second failed lullaby. The Hulk is more focused, gentler (the way he carries Natasha). He’s also  _more emotional_. Those are tears in his eyes.

Bottom line:  _It is entirely clear and evident that Bruce cares about Natasha in his in-character, repressed way and wants to be with her despite the risks and problems but circumstances get in the way._


	70. Natasha Romanoff + Pining

Too often, I see the claim that Natasha is out of character in AOU because she’s “pining after Bruce.”

That claim is infuriating.

**On a representation level, it’s infuriating.**

Because women who show the first signs of overt interest in men are  _consistently_  depicted as “obsessed” or desperate or slutty. Oh, we can’t have a woman actively pursuing a man who might need some persuading. Women who do that might get ideas about agency. No, no, only men should show interest and women should be reluctant until they’re won over like a prize. Fuck that noise.

**On a semantics level, it’s infuriating.**

What is pining? It’s every woman in every romcom who stares and sighs at the man she can’t be with because fill-in-the-blank (he doesn’t notice her, he’s taken, she’s taken, etc.). Pining is waiting for that man to take action.  _Pining_   _is the opposite of actively pursing a relationship and/or being open about one’s feelings and intentions._

**On a character level, it’s infuriating.**

This idea that Bruce is not interested in Natasha or that somehow she would be so clueless or cruel as to pursue someone who has no interest in her? Is ridiculous.

Natasha knows people. Natasha knows Bruce is attracted to her, that he cares about her. The lullaby and the fact that he trusts her after everything and the fact that he enjoys flirting with her  _is proof of that._

Bruce, though, is not a demonstrative person. He’s got a lot of baggage and self-loathing. He isn’t going to let himself be happy  _with anybody_ without some serious change happening ([see my companion post for more on that](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/129208779630/bruce-banner-interest)).

**On a this-is-what-actually-happened-on-screen level, it’s infuriating.**

Natasha  _is_ subtle about the way she approaches Bruce — who  _she knows to have sworn off a happy ending for himself_  (”I don’t every time get what I want”). 

She throws eyes at him, not her panties. She eases him into flirtation through role play. She tells him her intentions and walks away  _so he can think about his next move._ At the farmhouse, she overplays her hand (especially in the extended scene) because she’s not thinking strategically, she’s in pain. When Bruce comes for her in Sokovia, she waits for him reach for her. 

And when Bruce tells her the thing she’s been waiting  _years_  to hear — “You’ve done enough” — her smile  _is subtle_. She takes that in with a seriousness and stillness that is entirely in character.

On top of that, the claim is that Natasha “doesn’t show her love” by taking someone’s face in her hands is just ???? 

The examples given are Clint and Steve. Um, yeah, first of all Clint is her friend and in The Avengers she hasn’t had the character growth that makes her more open. So, yes, she’s going to be subtle. Secondly, she  _does_  take Steve’s face in her hands when she kisses him on the run. The difference there is she’s not doing it for herself (because it’s totally cool if Natasha flirts to make Steve look cool or help him run from HYDRA, but  _god forbid_ she do it for herself). Plus and also, what does Natasha do with Lila to show her love? Oh, right, she cups Lila’s face.

Regardless, the fact is we have never seen MCU Natasha romantically involved with anyone besides Bruce.  _She’s going to behave differently._

Bottom line:  _It’s not abusive to gently let someone know about your feelings for them, even if they might not be in a place to wholly reciprocate those feelings yet. It’s called navigating adult relationships._


	71. Maximoff Twins in AoU

** anonymous said: **   
**What is your opinion about Maximoff twins history in AoU? It seems one of the harshest criticism. Although it started with the casting news.**

You know, I honestly don’t know enough about it. 

I know that in the comics Wanda and Pietro are Magneto’s children (unless they’re Wolverine’s) and, of course, neither of those characters are available in the MCU. So, they had to be “orphaned” in that sense. No controversy there.

Now, as to whether the  _characters_  kept their Jewish Roma heritage, that’s where I’m a bit fuzzy.

Clearly, the actors who were cast are neither Jewish nor Roma. ***** Definitely, it would have been better to give the opportunities to play such iconic roles to Jewish and/or Roma actors. That’s not where Hollywood’s priority lies, unfortunately. Neither Ian McKellan nor Michael Fassbender are Jewish, yet Magento’s heritage is a much more key component of his character than either Wanda or Pietro’s. Is this right? Ian himself has pointed out that a Jewish actor should play Magneto but also called himself lucky for having gotten the part ([x](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2012%2F11%2F29%2Fian-mckellen-magneto_n_2213210.html&t=NWNlNDFkOTljN2UxYjEyZTc2NDFkYTRjN2Q0ODRlZTkyMzEyMDNmNCxDVldJbTFiVQ%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F129245492470%2Fwhat-is-your-opinion-about-maximoff-twins-history&m=1)). Likewise, on the one hand, Jewish actors should not be pushed out of Jewish parts by non-Jewish actors. On the other hand, Ian’s performance is iconic. That’s the kind of uncomfortable space we as viewers have to live in.

**Where I’m confused, though, is why the _characters_  of Pietro and Wanda can’t be assumed to be Jewish Roma? **Nowhere in the film does it state anything about their heritage other than vaguely Eastern European. So why don’t we assume their heritage is the same as the comics?

If the answer to that is “whitewashing” — that’s where I get annoyed. Roma, just like Jewish people, have a lot of diversity in skin tone, hair color, etc. The assumption that Roma have to look a certain way is how we got those two horrible cases where blonde Roma girls were forcibly removed from their parents and parent-appointed caretakers ([x](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fblonde-girls-and-roma-families-the-controversy-looks-stupider-every-day-2013-10&t=OGRhYjI1OWVkZGEzZThjNjQ4ODIzNjhiMjkwZWQ2NzhmM2U5NDI5YSxDVldJbTFiVQ%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F129245492470%2Fwhat-is-your-opinion-about-maximoff-twins-history&m=1))([x](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fdna-test-confirms-blonde-girl-is-dublin-roma-family-daughter-2013-10&t=ZjQxYzEyNDU2NzgyMDhlOGU0NTkxYWRhODAwZjM1NWNmMzNmYWQwMSxDVldJbTFiVQ%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F129245492470%2Fwhat-is-your-opinion-about-maximoff-twins-history&m=1)). Authorities and witnesses in two countries simply refused to believe that pale, blue-eyed children could be Roma. Newsflash — “whiteness” doesn’t belong to any one ethnic group. 

Obviously, the MCU  _does_  need more diversity in casting. 100%. But at the same time, it’s not okay to divorce a character or a person of their heritage simply because they don’t “look” like they “should.”

But, like I said, Anon, I don’t know enough about the controversy. I’d definitely be open to learning more.

**ETA:** Already learning more! I’ve been told that Aaron Taylor-Johnson  _is_  Jewish. I should have looked that up before I posted. Thanks to [the-quickest-of-silvers](http://the-quickest-of-silvers.tumblr.com/) for the correction!


	72. Natasha Romanoff + The Lullaby

This comes up a lot, so I really wanted to look at why, objectively, Natasha  _is_  the right Avenger for the task of the lullaby. I’m going to set aside any notions of shipping and just focus on the tactical reasons why the Black Widow makes the most sense as the Hulk tamer.

Essentially, what I’m saying is that the ability to Hulk tame didn’t spring forth from Natasha’s genitals. It’s a tactical, necessary plan that is painless for the Hulk and Bruce  _and_  suits Natasha’s skill-set as someone who prefers to use  _subtlety rather than brute force._  

Reasoning under the cut.

**The Obvious Choice: Sleep aid**

To start, let’s touch on why the “lullaby” needs to exist. It’s called a lullabyto fit with the narrative themes of the movie (parenthood, creation, etc.). But it’s also called a lullaby because, in the MCU, the Hulk transforms back into Bruce  _only when he becomes unconscious_. In TIH and TA, we see Bruce directly after a Hulk-out a few times:

  1. The Hulk has tired himself out running across several hundred miles of the South American continent. 
  2. Weary from battle and scared of the storm, the Hulk rests with Betty in the cave.
  3. Mid-transformation, the serum brings Bruce back to his own body.
  4. After the helicarrier incident, he crash lands through a building and, presumably, knocks himself out.
  5. Once the Battle of New York is over and Loki is secure, Bruce comes back to himself (and the promise of shawarma, super delicious). 



Unlike before, Bruce is now obliged to go Code Green on a much more regular basis. Obviously, letting the Hulk run around unchecked for a few days is not going to work as a strategy. They also can’t count on him exhausting himself after flinging around a few HYDRA goons. 

So the Team has to  _make_ the Hulk go to sleep. 

A serum would be a great option, but it’s indicated in CA:TWS that Bruce has been trying out a bunch of different serums and they aren’t working out for him. Knocking him out crashing-through-a-building-style takes a lot of force — hence, VERONICA, as a worse case scenario. But the lullaby — that’s mental manipulation, hypnosis. It minimizes collateral damage. It maximizes Bruce’s comfort. It might have seemed like a long shot when it was proposed, but once it started working it’s  _the obvious choice._

**The Obvious Choice: Lullaby-giver**

Of the Team, Natasha is the best person for the job.  _Not_  because she’s a woman.  _But because she has a very specific skill set._ Let’s look at the roster, from least to most likely.

 **Thor Odinson.** The Hulk recognizes Thor as someone who can take a beating, someone he can take his frustrations out on. Unless Thor knocked the Hulk out with the hammer every time (thereby making it likely that the Hulk would go after Thor and not the baddies), it’s best he keeps his distance.

 **Clint Barton.**  I guess in some iterations of the Avengers, Hawkeye sort of jokes the Hulk back into Bruce. That’s kind of a neat idea. But that actually  _would_  come out of nowhere. Clint gets some good jokes in, but his humor is dry not laugh-until-you-transform hilarious. Also, Bruce and Clint exchange nary a word in canon. In fact, Clint shoots some disapproving looks at Bruce every now and again. A lot would have to change to make this make sense. And the jokes would have to be damn good, which is tricky.

 **Betty Ross.**  (Bonus). A lot of people seem to think Betty should just drop everything and become the person who sits on the quinjet waiting to talk down the Hulk. This is an important job, okay, but it’s also logistically a nightmare. Betty, as badass as she is, isn’t the Red She-Hulk in the MCU. She’s a civilian. Plus, the lullaby doesn’t work just because the Hulk likes someone a whole bunch. The lullaby works because  _it’s hypnosis._  That takes skill.

 **Tony Stark.** The Hulk saved Tony after the Battle of New York. They have a rapport. But their rapport consists of Tony literally poking Bruce with pointy things. It consists of Tony fucking up and calling the Other Guy “Bruce Banner” because, to him, they are one in the same. Tony Stark, bless him, is  _not aware of other people’s needs_. It’s much more in character for him to build a giant robot than it would be to calm down the Hulk. The best he could do would be to talk at the Hulk, but their little therapy session might have put Bruce to sleep — but it also annoyed the ever-living-fuck out of him.

 **Steve Rogers.** The Hulk listens to Steve and takes orders — that’s how the Hulk can function as an Avenger. But Hulk isn’t enough of a good little soldier to be ordered down from a transformation. That is not gonna fly. Plus, even if Steve could do the lullaby, a good leader delegates. Steve can’t be the one to slip off to complete a side mission. 

So that leaves…

 **Natasha Romanoff.** It was always going to be Natasha. 

Natasha is  _not_  “a warrior.” Sif is a warrior. _Sif would not be suited to the lullaby, despite being a woman, because — say it with me — just because something reads feminine that doesn’t make it women’s work._

Natasha is a spy. Natasha is hyper-feminine. That DOES NOT MAKE HER LESS. IT IS HER STRENGTH. SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW FEMININE EQUALS WEAK. I swear to God, the people who make this claim are the same people who think badass women calling a man “a girl” as an insult is a feminist statement. No. Bad. Stop it. At the top of Natasha’s skill set  _is persuasion_. Yeah, she can take a motherfucker down, but she does that only if it makes sense for the mission. If it makes more sense, she’ll take a beating in order to pull a reverse-interrogation. Her trick isn’t pretending to be feminine and then being like, “Surprise, bitch, I have the strength of a man.” Her trick is, “You thought feminine means weak. Let me show you how wrong you are.” The Red Room  _is all about that trope_. 

Part of her skill set is that Natasha can read people (and gods and monsters) like no one else. Natasha recognizes that the Hulk is, deep down, a big, strong kid throwing a temper tantrum. So, yeah, she uses her soothing talking-to-kids voice. She calls the Hulk “Big Guy” fondly. She uses touch and gentleness, while employing a very skilled hypnotic suggestion (”sun’s gettin’ real low”) that she and Bruce must have worked on at length. 

Yes, the lullaby  _does_  have maternal overtures. And it does, symbolically, tie in with her subplot of being infertile but also being maternal with the Barton children. People who protect others for a living are going to have shades of the maternal/paternal, mama bear/poppa wolf tendencies. Even the Terminator is a father figure. So why is it bad or weak for Natasha to have a maternal side? Hmmmm, I’m thinking it has something to do with the patriarchy. I dunno. Ask Molly Weasley. [Also, you can have a maternal side  _without wanting children_. You can  _have children_ without having much of a maternal side. It’s more than a biological imperative.]

And, finally, let’s just disregard this notion of fear, okay? Natasha feared gods and monsters and nothing she was ever trained for. But she suited up and took down aliens. She’s an motherfucking Avenger. She’s going to fight the Mad Titan. She masters her fears as a matter of course. That’s who she is. 

Now, the lullaby  _is intimate_. So it’s no small wonder that it required and fostered intimacy between Bruce and Nat. It’s a nice, logical shorthand for how they got close.

 

 

 

 

 

 

>  
>
>>  
>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>> PREEEEEEEAAAAAACCCCHHHHHH
>>>> 
>>>> Everything exactly right ^^^^^^
>>> 
>>> This part, I could buy. It’s not exactly what I saw on screen, though.
>>> 
>>> To me, what would feel right for these characters is MCU!Natasha displaying a perfect balance of intimacy and professionalism. That’s who she is. It’s part of her identity on screen that you can never be quite sure how truthful she’s being, because she’s a spy. Remember her one-on-one with Loki in the first movie?  Dancing the line between manipulative and incredibly honest is what she does best. Cap2, for its faults, did this remarkably well: the audience (through Cap) got to know her as a human being, as much as she was willing to open up. She was in control. That’s the kind of character she is.
>>> 
>>> The way she was written in AoU, in my opinion, wasn’t any of that. The moments of we-are-human displayed by each Avenger, while a reasonable theme for a second movie, felt shoehorned in without any setup or believability, Natasha’s possibly most of all. She’s not shown as persuasive or protective or anything like that with her infertility subplot - it just raises the stakes in the vaguest of senses. There was no story behind her mutual trust with Bruce - a trust between the least trustworthy and least trusting, respectively, people in the cast. It can be headcanoned as a whole lot of offscreen intimacy and rapport. It can be headcanoned as another brilliant mindplay by Natasha. It can be headcanoned as both. But onscreen, all it was to me was the hand of the director cutting in and saying, “These two will have a thing. It’s my choice, not theirs.”
>>> 
>>> I really, really like the idea. If you think about it from a universe perspective, it makes sense. If it was in the writers’ heads, though, it just really didn’t make it onto that screen. What they put in, I think, is very poor shorthand.
>>> 
>>> That’s my problem with this movie. The underlying story might have some good stuff, but as a movie in and of itself it drops everything important for a mix of scenes-that-are-supposed-to-make-you-feel-something and (good) fight scenes and lets you fill in the details later. This is the  _opposite_  of The Avengers, which was a good movie primarily (and to me, exclusively) because the entire story was fit in so succinctly in between the entertaining superhero movie fare. You could argue that they’re trying to fit more in in AoU and something had to give, but things like  _the entire point of Natasha as a character imo_  are not things I’m willing to give up.
>>> 
>>> I don’t ship, romantically or platonically, Natasha and Bruce, because the Natasha I saw onscreen with Bruce was wholly unconvincing. I do ship (platonically) CA2!Natasha and Steve, because throughout that movie Natasha was empowered to make that the story. She persuaded me. And, in what I love so much about characters like her, I have no clue if the whole thing was an act.
>> 
>> Aaaaaand, all the other good points. My issue is that I can see this pairing completely working, due to the factors [blueincandescence](http://tmblr.co/mtej68fP_6aQzSiaIT2Hs1A) laid out, and I end up getting super frustrated at the people who are talking about how it’s ooc and/or anti-feminist etc. due to the completely legitimate factors [transienturl](http://tmblr.co/m6poR6AmRv_aiio57Q5NV-Q)laid out. tl;dr Ultron made me ship it yet gave none of the good stuff. The movie is a fucking tease.
> 
> Yep. Sighs. There were some good ideas, but they just… didn’t.
> 
> (But The Winter Soldier, though! Steve+Nat!)

See, this is the kind of criticism I can get behind. Because it’s true, there is a lot of headcanoning/filling in the blanks necessary to make brucenat in Age of Ultron feel satisfying. We have to imagine how the professional-intimacy line gets blurred. I definitely would rather have seen that. 

IMO, though, part of the reason the romance feels somewhat half-baked is because the individual character arcs  _are_  the purpose.

For Natasha, it’s a classic hero’s test. In TA it was, “I’ve got red in my ledger. I’d like to wipe it out.” Can she? Should she have to? She’s finally found something worth walking away from the mission for. Will she or won’t she? She’s tempted, but she won’t and she won’t let him, either. She’s a hero because she chooses to be, despite personal sacrifice. (You can’t have a should-I-stay-or-should-I-go story with Steve or Clint. Steve’s whole life he’s been putting the cause first. Clint has a family but even without them he’s the one who “made a different call.” Her story can’t be that he now makes another one.)

For Bruce, it’s an antihero’s journey (in the Paul Newman sense; the hero who doesn’t want to be). In TA it was, “We’re not a team, we’re a time bomb.” How long can he go on ticking? Is it worth the explosion? He never expected to want a future with someone in his condition. Will he or won’t he? He’s tempted, but he won’t and he won’t let her, either. Same story — he makes himself an antihero because he chooses to be, despite personal sacrifice.

For the sake of Phase Three, Natasha always had to stay and Bruce always had to leave. It’s an odd way of leaving a pairing that’s just been introduced, and so a lot of shortcuts were taken. It’s a tease, exactly like you say. 

But for me what we got is satisfying enough to make me interested in reading into those ideas and to want more in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

I definitely hear everything you’re saying about heteronormativity. But I would like to push back on the idea that a) Tony would have been better at the lullaby or b) that ScienceBros wasn’t present in the film.  
  
a) It would have been out of character for Tony to be inserted into the lullaby. The way it plays out in the film is subtle and hypnotic, two things Tony is assuredly not and Natasha absolutely is. Tony’s version of the lullaby is the Hulkbuster and it’s absolutely 100% in character for him to build a big robot to help someone he cares about.  
  
b) Tony and Bruce literally have a child in this film. I really wish that deleted scene where they make this explicit was kept in the film, just as I wish they would have explored Bruce’s role in Ultron’s psyche more. But the seed of that idea (just as the seed of the idea that Poe isn’t straight) is in the film. 

It’s not like Disney was so brave or progressive in their portrayal of Poe. What they have is the opportunity to be progressive. And I would say that the line, “Do you have a boyfriend? A cute boyfriend?” is intended to nudge Finn and Rey into ‘designated hetero pairing’ territory, whether or not that actually plays out. Similarly, Mad Max may mercifully not throw Max and Furiosa into a romantic storyline — which is awesome — but the film doesn’t exactly buck heteronormativity with the Nux-Capable storyline (as opposed to a storyline between the wives, etc.).

My point is, yes, talk about the overwhelming heteronormativity in movies, but it’s a little disingenuous to hold up movies without actual, tangible homosexual relationships as progressive just because a hetero love story isn’t explicit (yet). Representation requires more than a wink.


	73. brucenat + solo movies, headcanons, characters

** anonymous said: **   
**I think it's a perfect time to... HulkwidowAnon's return! 1) What would you like to watch in a BlackWidow/Hulk solo movies? 2) 3 headcanons about them between post-TA and pre-AOU. 3) What do you like most about Natasha and Bruce as individual characters (and what don't you like). Don't forget to tag and thanks for participate, fellow! :)**

Hello, Anon! I’ve really enjoyed reading the responses that have come in so far — you always ask such great questions!

**SOLO MOVIES**

**Black Widow:** Like most people, I want some Red Room action. Scarlett Johansson has the ability to look in her early twenties with the right costuming/make-up, so I’d want a flashback-heavy movie that shows how she dismantled the Red Room, leading to the Children’s War (my personal headcanon) and — years later — the consequences of that. I’d want [Yelena Belova](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvel.com%2Funiverse%2FBlack_Widow_%28Yelena_Belova%29&t=OGQwNDgxZWU5ZjI1NjIwNTdlMWI0MTMxNjYxMTNiYWE3NTVkYzcyMyx1Q0h0bnZORw%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F129532548220%2Fi-think-its-a-perfect-time-to-hulkwidowanons&m=1) as the major villain (in Marvel flims, the heroes are  _always_  pitted against their dark counterparts) and the secondary villain to be [Alexei Shostakov](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvel.com%2Funiverse%2FRed_Guardian_%28Alexei_Shostakov%29&t=ODgyN2QxN2U3MDU2YTk4Y2FhYzc3ZmI5YTUzNzg2ZGJjMjg0ZWNlMSx1Q0h0bnZORw%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F129532548220%2Fi-think-its-a-perfect-time-to-hulkwidowanons&m=1), with whom she has some complicated history. It would explore identity, redemption — all the great Widow character beats. In an ideal world, it would’ve come out after CA: TWS.

**The Hulk:** You know, I can kinda see Marvel’s conundrum with TIH2. A Hulk solo movie is tricky business. Planet Hulk is an interesting concept, but I’m with the majority here —  AOU humanizes the Hulk well, but I’m still 100 percent in this for Bruce Banner. I’d like to see some of the elements of The Hulk (2003) — his childhood, the fact that The Other Guy has always been a part of his psyche. I could see a film set after AOU where Bruce is committed to figuring out how to live with the Hulk and so he dives deep (perhaps with some mysticism thrown in) to understand him. It would be interesting if his father was somehow involved in the film (not to be redeemed, but not as a villain, either). I’d want Betty Ross and Leonard Samson to be involved. They’d be there to humanize him when he feels most monstrous. General Ross could be involved as well, but in a more general capacity. Bruce would be his own villain. (That’s all pretty nonsensical — Hulk is a hard one to pull off). 

**Widow/Hulk Movie:** YES, PLEASE. They could [go get ice cream for all I care](http://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dj_5KgpN38hM&t=YWE2NGEzMWI3NDYwYmE5NWQwNmU2NWY4MjE5NWJkODgzMWRkMGIwOSx1Q0h0bnZORw%3D%3D&b=t%3Afig-fyIelTxNRFoBfT5OqQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fblueincandescence.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F129532548220%2Fi-think-its-a-perfect-time-to-hulkwidowanons&m=1). No but, actually, they would kick all kinds of butt together. Thematically, it could be Widow’s movie but the new Red Room is all about genetically altering children using gamma technology. Betty Ross and Helen Cho would be their science team back up, and Clint Barton would show up with the calvary (Fury, Hill, etc.). It could be post-AOU, so there’s all kinds of delicious tension between them. 

**HEADCANONS**

Everyone has been so on-point with the top this-has-got-to-be-canon moments (old movies, rooftop/lab late night chats, lullaby prep, etc.), I’ll just throw out some specific personal ones.

1. “Missed our window.” Something about the way Ruffalo delivers this line makes me think this is not the first time they’ve had a conversation like this. I have been in the Bruce-knows-what’s-up camp from the beginning. I headcanon that these two have been flirting up a storm, but something or other has been getting in the way (Tony barging into the lab, Clint nesting in weird spaces). What surprises Bruce at the bar is not that he’s being flirted with or that she’s openly planning on them banging that night — it’s that  _not only is she romantically-inclined, she’s putting it out in the open_. That’s the one he kinda didn’t figure.

2. “You could be on a sun-drenched beach turning brown instead of green.” That’s a very specific fantasy and one that’s not really Bruce’s style — but he doesn’t refute it. So I like to headcanon that Bruce and Natasha got a taste of the beach and what it would be like to set aside the Avengers and tourist it up together. Maybe they had a side mission that happened to be in Cabo. Maybe they needed to put themselves on an island to practice the lullaby with no distractions. Things go a bit south, of course, and Bruce comes back telling Tony, “I love the beach. The Other Guy not so much” and Tony latches on to that particular fantasy as a happy ending for Bruce, not realizing Natasha is a huge part of it.

3\. “What’s a nice girl like you doing in a dump like this?” I mean, it’s definitely canon that Bruce and Natasha play flirt 40s style. But I also headcanon them putting some civilian costuming and going out to enjoy the city together whenever they please. All Bruce has to do is not shave, keep his glasses off, and wear some trendier clothing. Natasha has a long blonde wig and a Jersey Girl persona she’s been perfecting for years — complete with an apartment she stays in when her cover is between boyfriends. When they’re undercover, they hit all the fluff tropes — hit up romantic spots, pretend to be dating, and just generally  _play_. It’s a safe space for them to pretend to be the happy and well-adjusted and guilt-free people they aren’t. 

**CHARACTERS**

**Natasha:** _Positive —_  Compassion. Natasha, because she was raised to be a weapon, plays judge, jury, and executioner by necessity. She’s deadly, but she’s also judicious. Because of her past, because she’s seeking redemption, she understands the finer points of coercion and is the first person to reassure somebody when their actions are out of their control.  _Negative —_ Self-doubt. To say that Natasha has issues with identity is as massive understatement. Natasha buries herself under layers and layers of “who do you want me to be” and lets herself be the person who’s “comfortable with everything” because it’s easier than facing up to the nauseating feeling of not knowing.

**Bruce:**   _Positive —_ Kindness. Bruce can’t not help people. He wants to be good to other people, even when they aren’t good to him. He has a soft spot for children and tends to the ill, even though medicine isn’t his primary training. He doesn’t let Tony annoy him, he’s courteous to Natasha even though he knows she’s playing him. He’s a huge dork.  _Negative —_  Self-hatred. Does Bruce know how to punish himself or what? He’s deep down miserable, and has been all is life. He blames himself for things that he can’t control as a matter of course. He truly believes that other people, the whole word would be better off without him.

For both of these characters, they have to struggle not to lose the positive parts of themselves. Natasha has the capacity to be indifferent; Bruce has the capacity to be cruel. The negative parts of themselves make them into weapons — something they try to channel for the greater good. They really are an equal match.

Thanks for the prompt, Anon! *hugs*


	74. Jemma Simmons: Survivor

The reason Jemma saying “I wouldn’t have survived without Will” doesn’t irk me in the slightest is because the narrative  _never once_  implies that she has to rely on him because of his ‘manliness’ or any bullshit like that. She hunts, she cooks, she survives. 

You know what she does need? Supplies. Shelter. That nice First Aid kit and all that handy tech. Will has these things. That’s what keeps her alive physically. Mentally, Jemma is also a very social person who is used to caring for and relying on her friends. It’s part of who she is, so having another person to fight for allows her reconnect with a part of herself that she might have otherwise lost.

_As a lot of people have pointed out, Will exists to develop Jemma’s character and to help her figure out what she wants for herself._

Female characters are used this way for male characters  _all the time_. Yet, when a man is put in this role for a woman, suddenly a distributing number of people can’t see past the penis-having. They see the narrative shifting to become All About Him, even though the storyline and agency is clearly all Hers. What the misogyny is  _that_ about?

Someone compared jemmawill to brucenat in the tags disparagingly, but — really and truly — the only similarities are that 1) shippers are throwing a hissyfit and 2) a female character’s arc is being erased by people crying wolf about sexism, while on the same breath wailing that another female character ‘is ruined’ after she reaches out and chooses her own happiness.

BTW, I lowkey ship FitzSimmons; I firmly believe it’s all gonna work out in the end. Take a breath.

 

 

 

For all the people who can’t reconcile Jemma having PTSD since she has, like, shelter and food during her six months stranded on an isolated planet with a different gravitational pull and no sun — consider what happens to her just before she returns to Earth:

She comes into contact with That Thing. Death, the monster, a Skrull, whatever. The Thing that drove a bunch of trained NASA(ish?) scientists  _to kill themselves violently_. 

On top of adjusting to a massive reverse culture shock, on top of having to deal with the guilt of leaving Will and seeing Fitz, Jemma has just had her first close encounter with the mind-altering, shape-shifting alien that has been hunting her for months. 

So, yeah, one more reason to have PTSD.


	75. brucenat + Civil War

 

** anonymous said: **  
**so it's just my mind betrayed me or Natasha is looking Ross with an angry face...?**

I mean, the way trailers are cut it’s always hard to tell. Plus, Natasha has resting murder face anyway, because she’s amazing. That said, there are a lot of reasons that Natasha  _would_  look at Ross with an angry face.

**1\. It’s always THE WORST when an unlikable person agrees with your opinions.**  Natasha — as stated in the Avengers, as evidenced by her distress at losing SHIELD — believes in structures. She’s a self-sufficient agent, but an agent by definition works on behalf of something greater. The Avengers might have saved the world, but the ghost of SHIELD via the Helicarrier saved Sokovia  _and_  the Avengers from making a terrible choice. Tony’s quote in the trailer about needing oversight is an ideology that all her characterization so far demonstrates is a point that she’d agree with wholeheartedly. While she respects big government enough to appear in front of the senate in CA:TWS, she does have a distaste for the way the higher-ups are running things. So, I can see her subtle-pissed-off-frown-agreeing with Ross.

**2\. She knows that Ross is not stable.** Whether or not in canon she actually was at Culver when Ross forced Bruce to change (the tie-in comics say she was), she knows from Bruce’s file that Ross risked countless lives attacking Bruce  _and_  unleashed Blonsky  _and_  tricked Bruce into taking the serum in the first place. Ross is a nut job, and they put him in charge of the Accords. That’s not something Natasha would agree with at all.

**3\. All the bad stuff Ross has done? He did them to Bruce.** However much fandom likes to bitch, the fact is in canon Natasha cares about Bruce. She’s protective of Bruce. Whether or not that shines through in CA:CW, that underlying character beat is still canon unless otherwise stated. 

So, yeah, Nat might suck it up and work with Ross for the greater good, but that doesn’t mean she’s gonna like it.

Thanks for the ask, Anon!

 

 

 

 

 


	76. Civil War + Shipping

** anonymous said: ****your civil war trailer thoughts? my heart is still bleeding for** tony **.** i **don't expect to see cap dark side, it will be so interesting! and** i **like** nat's **position.** i'm **just a little tired of** stucky **fandom LOL**

Hey, Anon! Thanks for the ask! Sorry for the late reply; I’ve been buried in finals. Preparing cash flows from memory is the least fun thing pretty much ever. 

 

I did love the trailer! The whole movie is going to  _look_  great, that’s for sure. Everyone is A+ costume (*cough*green necklace*cough*) and hair-wise (let’s pretend Widow serum makes hair grow  _and_ wounds heal faster, shall we?). 

Plot-wise, I’m really excited for the whirlwind. Seeing Cap’s “dark side” will be super interesting, like you say. I’m a dork, so I’m waiting to see how Tony and Steve’s positions will thematically represent the different sides of American exceptionalism. I trust that neither of them will come out particularly villainous nor saintly. Tony and Steve both have selfless and selfish motivations, and I think both will shine through amid all the crash-blaow. 

I don’t seek out enough Cap fandom-y stuff to really see much stucky, so I don’t have any particular feelings toward the fandom. And I understand why it’s a popular ship. As long as no one is bashing Peggy Carter, I am cool. 

In general, I do get :/ when any fandom acts like it has exclusive rights to the story. What the writers choose is canon; that choice can lead to good or bad writing but it is  _not_  good or bad writing simply  _because_  it does or does not support a ship. “I, personally, enjoy the the parts that support my ship and don’t get much enjoyment out of the stuff that doesn’t” is totally fine; “EVERYTHING IS RUINED BECAUSE X HAPPENED; NO ONE CARES ABOUT X THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT MY SHIP” is really obnoxious. Speak for yourself. 

Same goes for people who are adamantly against a ship. I’m an neutral-positive to fitzsimmons, and I saw something today that said it was ruining AOS, it was taking time away from other characters, it was boring, no one likes it, and  _of course,_  it’s sexist — Like, really with the histrionics?  _You_  don’t like it.  _You_  prefer other characters.  _You_  think it’s boring.  _Your_ reading of it is that it’s sexist. A thing is  _not_  inherently bad or wrong because  _you_  don’t like it. There can be valid points on  _both sides_ because they are largely opinion and interpretation-based. I really don’t get why we can’t just have rational differences and exchanges of opinions over the entertainment we like for different reasons.

…That went off the rails. Complaining about complaints is probably worse than the actual complaining. Whoops! 

Anyway, Anon, thanks for the question and (presumably) for reading my whining. 

 

 

OKAY. I just saw  _Civil War_ , and IT WAS AMAZING, and I don’t have time to write a review of it, but three things have been bugging me all week and I just wanted to state for the record:

**Steve/Sharon:**  “The kiss wasn’t  _earned_.” 

What world do you live in where every goddamn kiss has to be  _earned?_ What is up with shippers imbuing the act of kissing with such  _meaning_? They didn’t start dating. They didn’t even do anything all that romantic. They kissed.

Cap is feeling a hundred thousand emotions all at once. Sharon is helping him. Sharon is beautiful. He’s grateful. He likes her. He trusts her. In  _Winter Soldier,_ he thinks about dating her. In  _Civil War_ , he gives her a little liplock. They don’t interact again.

_Why the fuck would something like that have to be_ earned _?_ Tumblr. Come on.

**Vision/Wanda:**  “They’re sooooo cute!”

And you know what? They are. They’re actually super fascinating.

_But they are the definition of heteronormativity_. Like, “Oh, well this android is man-shaped and has a masculine-sounding voice so he  _must be into chicks, right???”_ Hrm.

I know it’s in the comics, but so’s Steve/Sharon and y _et_. As far as I can see, all the Steve/Sharon “heternomative” this and “heteronormative” that haters are silent on Vision/Wanda. Hmmmm…could that be because  _Vision isn’t part of a popular m/m ship???_  Mysteries.

**Natasha/Bruce:**  “The Russos  _hate_ themand  _love_ Buckynat!”

Nope. One line of dialogue that is neither here nor there. The necklace  _is_ green. Natasha  _glares_  at Ross. When the footage of the Hulk comes on, Rhodey turns back to Nat. Tony  _asks Natasha if there’s anything she can do about getting Bruce back_  and  _Natasha knows Bruce well enough to know he wouldn’t be on their side._ Their connection exists but it doesn’t overshadow her motivations in any way. Exactly how this ‘shipper likes it.

Now that all the rants are out of the way, I’ll write up a real review of all the things I really  _loved_  when I get a change.

Stay classy, Tumblr.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

** anonymous said: **  
**I understand your thoughts about Vision/Wanda and "the definition of heteronormativity", tho their connection is based in their weirdness and powers, that 'outsider feeling' they both share in the team, and a connection that it began in AoU. Most intense that a genre thing, that it doesn't matter, imo; but I totally get your perception and I share your mention on the hypocrisy side. Although I also seen comments defining Vision as abusive (very much in line brucenat haters). deja vu...**

I should have clarified — I  _do_  think Wanda/Vision is fascinating. And I do agree that what makes them interesting is that they’re outsiders. 

My point was just that, on a purely representational level, we have an AI who is extremely gendered shipped (overtly with the fans and covertly in the film) with the only single girl on the team. That is a very basic way of looking at it that could cause a knee-jerk reaction among the type of fan who disdains “heteronormative” ships. One could argue Wanda/Vision normalizes hetero-romance — Only we don’t see that argument.  

Or I don’t. But as a brucenat shipper when I glance at the tags I can tell which ships are being hated on because they’re compared to brucenat. Vision/Wanda has never been, at least as far as I can tell, so they must be a-okay-ish in the Marvel fandom on tumblr. I was just pointing out that maybe the reason we don’t see that kind of hate is because the male half of this ship isn’t claimed by any popular m/m ship.

But beyond the representational level —  _for sure_. Wanda and Vision are so fascinating and have so much in common and I enjoyed their interactions immensely. It’s a great relationship with a lot of interesting material. 

And I do think that the fact that Vision  _is_ an AI does make the gender politics at work here so much more fascinating. He’s adopted a gender — or, really, he’s inherited a gender from Tony Stark and Ultron/Helen Cho (who designed his form) — and he’s acting out that gender. And the person he most has a connection with happens to be his gender-opposite, which may be something that makes his performance all the more simple/compelling. 

But i think it raises an interesting question as to whether this is subversive or if it’s cis-gender normalizing. Someone with a  _lot_  more knowledge than me on the subject should tackle that question. If anyone has any links to meta hit me up!

Thanks for the follow-up Anon! (…I can’t even touch the “abusive” thing. It’s too much. Sometimes when you throw in sci-fi powers you can’t make things direct analogues to the real world, i.e., mutants are an imperfect metaphor for minority groups because, you know,  _they are different_ and  _they are dangerous, accidentally and on purpose,_  whereas minorities in any group have the  _exact same potential for destruction as any other human being_. Metaphors are metaphors, it’s a thing. Wanda and Vision both have boundary issues, to say the least, but they can’t be held to the same standard as real people, because they are not possible.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

** anonymous said: **  
**Scarlett joked that she rode Sebastian like a bronco. So is her comment okay, even when it's basically the same thing Sebastian saying?**

That’s an interesting question, Anon!

First, I want to say that I wasn’t commenting to point the finger of “this is not okay!” As I said, it’s pretty standard to talk about Scarlett’s thighs, etc.  **My point was that there was actual _disgust_  and  _anger_  over a two-second pratfall in AOU. People were  _livid_. But that reaction didn’t happen in this case. In this case, the comments were, “I ship it!” “Seb, OMG, you’re so hot.” **

**You follow me? I wasn’t addressing the _comment,_ I was addressing the  _hypocrisy_.**

But now I will address the comment, re: your question — is it basically the same thing? Let’s think about that.

One a semantics level, “riding Sebastian like a Bronco” isn’t as explicitly sexual as “between her thighs.” People ride bucking broncos as a profession. Kids play on bucking bronco rides (you’ve seen those yeah?) and that’s not sexualized. Men do it and it’s athletic, not sexual (unless they’re Magic Mike-ing it on purpose). Women get on the same ride and it’s instantly sexualized, whether or not they mean it to be (it’s kinda like a woman eating a banana. Even when it’s innocent there are still stupid comments). So Scarlett could have been joking about riding Sebastian like a bronco in a cowboy-athletic sort of way or she could have been sexualizing it. From her inflection, I didn’t get the ‘sexualizing it’ vibe.

But let’s say for the sake of argument that she was sexualizing her encounter with Sebastian. Would that be gross? Yeah, especially if they aren’t that close. Women sexualizing men who don’t want to be sexualized is absolutely not okay.

But is it  _the same?_

It can’t be. We don’t live in a society that treats men and women the same (of course, this applies to any and all groups, and I’m not just talking about cis-folks). Therefore, comments that are distasteful no matter what gender you’re talking about can take on a different or more harmful meaning when applied to women.

To clarify, sexualizing Sebastian Stan is not cool. But sexualizing Scarlett Johansson  _is relentless_. So much so that it permeates the way her character is viewed by the audience. You’re stuck kinda either thinking of Black Widow as a sex object or defending her from been seen as one. Sebastian Stan can be sexualized, and that’s bad, but it would take an awful lot of work to get people to believe the Winter Soldier was anything less than a fully-rounded character with a purpose in the narrative. 

So, my answer is no. But thanks for the question! It made me think.

 

 

 

 

MCU fandom thoughts —

**T’Challa/Nat:**

• No, they did not have “more chemistry than brucenat.” You just happen to find Chadwick Boseman hotter than Mark Ruffalo. The T’Challa/Nat exchanges were meaningful but not romantic. These are deeply professional people.

• T’Challa and Nat may have an interesting dynamic. CA:CW made me consider Natasha “retiring” as a politician, which I’d never really thought of before. Both Nat and T’Challa are highly intelligent people with complicated minds.

• But if you’re shipping T’Challa/Nat not in a ‘maybe they get together once after some hot UN debates and remember each other fondly’ kind of way but actually in an end-game,  **I-hope-Marvel-goes-there**  kind of way — stop and think. 

What you’re saying is that you think there’s nothing wrong with  _Natasha Romanoff, in canon, becoming the Queen of Wakanda_. Think about it. From a character perspective, think about it. From a representation perspective,  _please, please think about it_. 

When  _Black Panther_ comes out and T’Challa gets a canon love interest (Monica Lynne, probably, since she’ll make a nice audience-substitute coming from outside Wakanda as she does),  _think about why this should not be and will not be a white woman_ before you become one of the people who immediately starts bashing this character for being “boring.” You know it’s going to happen.

 

 

 

 

 

** anonymous said: **   
**Oh you are right. I admit the actor is hotter than MR. I believe Scarjo has also complained about Brutasha in her recent interview that she didn't want to be paired with an old dude again. So yeah, I think that's why people claimed she had more chemistry with BP.**

I’m pretty much with you, Anon.

I mean, yes, Chadwick Boseman is attractive as all hell. And he imbues T’Challa with  _such profound grace_ that it makes sense people are running to ship him with whatever character they identify with the most. 

(But, knowing we’re finally getting a black woman in a co-starring role in the non-TV MCU, Stanning too hard for Black Panther/White Character in canon is going to lead to trouble down the road. Look at Emily Van Camp’s Twitter and then tell me it’s not going to be 1000x worse for a black actress unless fandom  _matures like whoa_ in the next couple years.)

Anyway, yes, Chadwick Boseman, at 8 years older than Scarlett Johannson, is still almost 10 years younger than Mark Ruffalo. The younger woman/older man pairing does saturate media at a time when the older woman/younger man pairing is still rare. So, yeah, a lot of people are tired of that trope. I totally accept that preference. (The hate is a different story. That I don’t accept.)

The one little point I’ll quibble on is that I can’t recall ScarJo actually complaining about the age gap? I’ve watched a lot of her interviews, and she stays pretty professional. 

Overall, though, the thing about chemistry is that there are so many  _layers_  to it that it becomes meaningless to argue for/against it. Especially since fandom tends to gravitate toward  _a handful of tropes they think are the be-all and end-all of “character chemistry.”_  It’s a subjective argument, yet people keep putting their opinions and preferences out there they are gospel and verse. 

 

 

 

 

** anonymous said: **   
**Scarlett never complained about Brutasha. She did said that the fact that she was always pair up with people much older than her was getting tiring/boring, but it was never specifically about brucenat. She was talking in general :)**

Interesting! Apologies to you/the other Anon if you’re not the same. 

I’m sure she  _does_  feel that way, and I totally support her. The age gap between the Bruce/Nat characters doesn’t bother me at all, but I do roll my eyes at Hollywood casting increasingly younger women with the same aging actors. It’s one of the reasons I love Cary Grant so hard — by the time he got to  _Charade_  he was so sick of being paired with women half his age he refused to do a romance with Audrey Hepburn unless  _her_  character was the pursuer. 

Thanks for letting me know!


	77. brucenat + hearts of darkness

Nat + Bruce, Hearts of Darkness (pt. 1)

(Subtitled: I swear to magicaldestiny that I’m not  _anti_ -fluff. Sowwy.)

So, I originally wrote this for week three of the Four Weeks of Prompts challenge over at @hulkwidownet for the theme of Hurt and Comfort. I just had to do a big ole meta on this theme, especially in light of the extended farmhouse scene and Joss’s commentary on it…

And then life got in the way, and I never finished it. So a MegaMeta has been sitting in my drafts for months and months, taunting me. I’ve decided to put a pin in it and let it fly — in bite-sized pieces over the next few days, because  _did I mention this thing is long?_ I also thought shorter pieces might be more inviting for additional commentary. Add, subtract, divide, multiply; replies welcome!

**Hearts of Darkness**

I chose the title because I like the turn of phrase and because, as many know, I am obsessed with well-done angst. Y’all can keep your antagonist woobies. Deeply flawed characters who are nonetheless doing their damnedest to figure out the right thing to do and struggling to do it well are  _my everything_. Bruce and Natasha embody that ideal as individuals  _and_  in their developing relationship.

For me, the most interesting question of the Bruce and Natasha relationship is how they get from “Stop lying to me!” to “It’s not you I don’t trust”; from nightmare to lullaby; from “We could use a little worse” to “Go be a hero.” The answers I’ve seen — in meta, in fics — are variations on a theme: it wasn’t easy.

Bruce and Natasha, because they are so similar, because they come at their similarities in such different ways, have the capacity to be a source of both hurt and comfort to each other. We see it all over canon, from their very first meeting.

**Threats / Honesty**

Bruce is bae and Natasha is a saint, protect them at all costs, etc. But it’s keeping in mind their flaws, their pain that makes me go all gooey for them.

  * Covering all that deep down fluff,  **Bruce Banner**  is a prickly son of a bitch. He hates himself, but he can’t stand to be a victim. He’s a cynic. People piss him off on the regular (though he still wants to save them). 


  * Covering all her longing for trust,  **Natasha Romanoff**  manipulates like breathing. She doesn’t know herself, and she uses that to be who she needs to be. She’s a cynic. People are tools (though she still wants to save them).



When Natasha shows up in Kolkata, Bruce sees right through her. She works him by sprinkling in little truths about herself and her mission in order to cover up the big lie. Of course there’s a cage. She doesn’t want him in it; she doesn’t wish him ill. But she hides a gun under a table, and she never would have agreed to recruit him if there weren’t a contingency plan. He is a threat to her. She is a threat to him. They acknowledge that to each other.

But neither of them view the world or people that simply. Bruce believes Natasha enough to go with her to the Helicarrier, even if he’s waiting for the other shoe to drop. Natasha respects Bruce enough to treat him like a person, even if she’s batting her eyelashes at him for a purpose. They’re trying to be the nicer versions of themselves. And it’s because of that we can get exchanges like, “You’re gonna love it, Doc. We got all the toys,” and the little “Oh, you’re very young” deleted dialogue. 

They both have a mask of normal they wear for others and just to get themselves through the day. Not commenting on the masks they both slip into after Kolkata is a courtesy they show each other. The look they exchange after the “mindless beast” jab reinforces that, ‘Yes, we are pretending we are the most innocuous versions of ourselves. But I see you.’

So _Hearts of Darkness Parallel #1:_  Bruce and Natasha are liars who choose (in hard-press circumstances) to be honest with one another by showing each other their disparate parts. 

 

 

 

 

_I’m posting an extended meta on the good, the bad, and the ugly of Bruce/Natasha in bite-sized pieces. Discussion welcome!_

_pt. 1: Hearts of Darkness & Threats / Honesty_

**Flaws / Compassion**

The affect of the Mind Stone is something that the brucenat haters love to cast away in their quest to vilify the ship. But  _The Avengers_  and, later,  _The Age of Ultron_  makes it very clear that the Mind Stone is one hellaluvah paranoia machine. All the worse because it works on all the bad stuff that’s already there. 

As described earlier, Natasha and Bruce have been able to play nice on the Helicarrier — but they’re showing signs of strain. 

  * Natasha is on task as ever, getting information out of Loki — but she confronts him earlier than the movie implies Nick Fury ordered. She’s up against her toughest advesary and highest stakes yet, a trickster god who has her best friend under his thumb. Yes, she completed the mission. But she doesn’t follow orders to the letter, she has to get personal to get the mission done. This isn’t Natasha-as-usual.


  * Bruce is bristling over Tony’s ‘poke the bear’ approach to friendship  _and_  the lies that he knew SHIELD was hiding. They, like the General, don’t want heroes. They want weapons. But, at the same time, he  _likes_  being in the lab with Tony. He misses teamwork. He’s at odds with himself.



When Natasha comes in to confront Bruce, it’s with the intention of getting him away from the Scepter but her attempt at professionalism quickly devolves when Bruce starts in with the sarcasm. The Mind Stone has already gotten to them. Natasha is effected, but she’s better able to withstand it because her mind is made of marble, slippery but still strong where there are cracks. Bruce bares the brunt of it. His mind is a river, two streams that flood and recede. 

[Even my short parts are too long…more under the cut.]

All bit-back righteous fury, Bruce asks her  _if she knew_  — an echo of “And Fury tells you everything?” A passing glance in Kolkata is now a bite to the jugular. She  _isn’t that naive_ ; but she isn’t happy, either. They’re all on threat watch.

But even as they go at each other, there’s compassion, too. When Bruce tells the team about his failed attempt at suicide, Natasha puts her hand on her gun and takes every square inch of him in. He’s telling the group, but he’s telling her most of all. She’s scared, but even when he reaches for the scepter — just like Loki’s plan — she doesn’t go on the offensive, she doesn’t run. She lets him get a hold of himself. When the moment passes and he ducks away from her, she sticks close. Her fear is  _not_ bigger than her mission and will never be.

That’s what’s so fascinating about Natasha. Her whole life has been about survival — she graduated from Red Room at the expense of others  _and herself_ ; she made a name  _for herself_  before she worked for SHIELD. She’ll purge and sacrifice  _herself_ , whatever it takes to survive (to an extent that gets shorter as she becomes more heroic), because that’s how she was raised. She’ll make calculated risks on her life, but (because) the thought of losing it (to The Hulk, to the Winter Soldier) terrifies her. But, even so, she’s loyal to the mission. 

Bruce doesn’t have a mission; he has an ideal — science should improve lives — that gets more/less ambitions the better/worse he feels about himself. Bruce is a survivalist against his will. The suicide reveal is absolutely pivotal to his character. Bruce  _won’t_  let his monster get control of him. He doesn’t see an end so he tries to end himself. He’d rather take his own life than take others’ lives. He values life, because all he wanted as a child was for his mother to stop hurting. He’ll take a calculated risk and use the monster (starting in TIH), but he’s able to do that because he’s constantly sacrificing pieces of himself for the sake of control.

They’re faced with these horrors in themselves at a moment of truth. After the confrontation literally explodes in their faces (moments before Bruce saves the day by finding Loki; not that anyone but Natasha has time notice), Bruce and Natasha are separated from the team. Whatever the haters like to say, the Bruce/Natasha dynamic is just as present as Steve/Tony — antagonists who learn to work together as a team. While Steve/Tony are learning to work together on an engine, Bruce/Natasha are working out their issues in a much more visceral way. 

Bruce is about to change, and Natasha is trapped. Natasha (after waving away help, because she does value other people’s lives and because she knows they’d be no use) uses the only weapon she has at her disposal. She tries to talk Bruce down:

> _Natasha:_  I swear on my life, I will get you out of here. You’ll walk away and never —  
>  _Bruce:_  Your life?!

Bruce’s response is essentially, ‘Why should I care about your life?’ or ‘What does a monster care about life?’ That stops her. 

Does Natasha mean what she says? She probably doesn’t realize it when it comes out of her mouth — but all of a sudden she’s not lying to save herself. She  _is_  sorry she dragged him into this freak show and put everyone here at risk. She watches him change, sees the pain of it. How hard he’s fighting it, even though he’s right. He shouldn’t care. But he does, and she does.

There’s so much compassion and agony between them when Bruce looks over the moment before he loses his mind and himself. “Bruce,” she says, because she sees the person inside the monster. But Bruce is puny and the Mind Stone is infinite, and so the monster wins. 

There’s definitely a monster-movie approach to the rest of the scene. We need to feel that the Hulk is scary to buy the premise that adorable Bruce is a potential liability. And we need to see how the team’s least powered member (barring zombie Clint) can stack up against the team’s most powered member. She obviously can’t beat him (even Thor can’t) but she holds her own admirably. 

The other thing the rest of the scene does is show us that the Hulk is not an intentional killer. He attacks when provoked, but the Other Guy still hesitates before the killing blow. Natasha, as observant as she is, would never miss a thing like that.

 

 

 

 

_I’m posting an extended meta on the Bruce/Natasha arc in bite-sized pieces. Discussion welcome!_

_[pt. 1: Hearts of Darkness & Threats / Honesty](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/138195242305/nat-bruce-hearts-of-darkness-pt-1)   
[pt. 2: Flaws / Compassion](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/138244859335/nat-bruce-hearts-of-darkness-pt-2) _

**Fear / Response**

Natasha and Bruce are posed very similarly in the aftermath of the Helicarrier Hulkout, having both survived the thing they fear.

  * **Natasha**  retreats to what AOU makes me think is her default blankness. Her body is dealing with the aftershocks of trauma, but her expression is contained and her focus is entirely inward. I can see her holding herself like that as child, tucked into hidey-hole and trying to imagine what safe feels like. It probably feels like a luxury, not being present in her body.


  * **Bruce**  wakes up “buck-ass nude” and confused and, worse, to an audience. His first question is if he hurt anyone; it’s noble that he cares but, his own morality speaking, that does not make up for the fact that he has to ask. He curls in on himself, but doesn’t have a moment to sort himself out, because he never gets to be alone. Not even just in his own head.



There are a lot of great metas out there exploring why Natasha is so bone-deep afraid of the Hulk. The prevailing theory is that the Hulk is chaos and the Black Widow is control. I can see that, definitely. But I also like the idea that what really terrifies her is the  _exposure_. The Hulk is scary, but the transformation is what makes him horrific. Erskine’s serum might as well come right out of Greek literature — it grants power  _based on character._

I can see Natasha finding Bruce hard to look at, in the beginning. Despite how tightly wound he is, all of him, good and bad, is out there for everyone to see. It must blink at her like neon. Natasha no doubt knows every bit of Bruce’s history from his SHIELD file. She knows that Bruce’s intentions when he submitted himself to gamma rays were good. Sure, he was chalk full of hubris, but, ultimately, what he wanted was to make something that would save lives. He learned the hard way that  _intentions don’t always matter_. He learned the hard way that  _it’s not what you do that defines you, it’s who you are_. For Natasha, who is driven by the need to wipe out the red in her ledger, who draws very tight lines between what is and isn’t her own fault, those two lessons  _are_ terrifying. At whatever level Natasha recognizes this, the Hulk embodies her worst fears about and for herself.

And Bruce has to live that fear. He is his own worst nightmare. It takes him years to see more to the Hulk than the worst parts of himself — all the parts of himself that remind him of his father. I’ll talk more about Bruce’s fear later, but what’s essential to recognize is that between TIH and TA a  _lot_  changes in terms of his relationship with the Hulk. In TIH, he speaks about it as if it’s a hallucinogenic experience triggered by physical response (in the deleted scenes, he does admit to Leonard that there are aspects of his “personality” that he can’t control). He disassociates himself to a huge degree, so much so that he doesn’t even want to hear about control. By TA the Hulk is “the Other Guy” instead of “it”; Bruce dissociates but not nearly as much. He accepts that the Hulk is a part of him and that gives him a modicum of control.

Only the transformations are worse now, in a way, because he’s more present in them. Couple that with the fact that he’s forced himself to live separate from the people who love him and it’s no small wonder that he’s beginning to blur. Which is why his response to the security guard’s question about who he is, Hulk or human — “You know, I’m not even sure” — really gets me. It’s a major identity crisis, and who do we know who can relate to that?

While Bruce is struggling with duality, I see Natasha struggling with multiplicity. She can be whoever other people want her to be. That’s her power, her  _human_ power. A skill-set forged by pain and sacrifice. It’s interesting to note that what wakes her from her fugue state is a mission, a personal one. The one that Fury, that Barton gave to her. It’s not intentional, but there’s a nice wordplay to that scene when she says, “I copy.”

Bruce and Natasha both get scenes in TA that show them in the process of deciding to be Avengers. For Steve, Tony, and Thor, the question is, “Can they work together?” For Bruce and Natasha (and Clint) the question is, “Will the choose to fight?”

  * **Natasha**  has her scene with Clint, in which he gives her a get out of jail free card. She’s a spy not a soldier. Clint, the man who brought her into SHIELD, doesn’t expect her to deal with monsters and magic and nothing she was ever trained for. She’s afraid of those things, they’re bigger than she is, but  _she wants to do good_. The Avengers is her chance to be more than her skill-set. She’ll stop Loki and save the world. Her response to fear is  _not avoidance._ (Say it again for the people who still think she should be cowering in front of the Hulk years later.)


  * **Bruce’s**  decision scene ends up mostly on the cutting room floor. The scene with the security guard goes on to have Bruce state, “I know where I can do the most good, but it’s also where I can do the most harm.” The security guard (whom I think we all headcanon to now work at Avengers Tower) tells Bruce, essentially, that’s the human experience. Bruce wants to do good, he wants the Hulk to be worth all his sacrifice in some way. He’s not a soldier, but he, too, decides to wade into a war.



After both characters make their decisions about joining the Avengers, there is a little dialogue exchange that makes their character arcs come together. Bruce and Natasha spend all of  _The Avengers_  on the cusp of harshly intimate moments with each other that prove that they see every ugly, untrustworthy thing about the other. And yet:

> _Bruce:_  This all seems horrible.  
>  _Natasha:_  I’ve seen worse.  
>  _Bruce:_ Sorry.  
>  _Natasha:_  No. We could use a little worse.  
>  _Bruce:_  *thatdamnsmile*

I just…yeah. Just so much. Everything. At the end of the world, they both show up of their own volition. They recognize that. They respect it.  _They accept each other as teammates, faults and all._

Someone please explain to me why this ship never properly launched after TA? My own mea culpa is that I a) was meh about what I saw as a bro-y MCU until about c. 2013 and b) was leery of non-canon ships after having my heart toyed with. Bless all you adventurous pre-AOU shippers. MVPs.


	78. Civil War + General Thoughts

 

**if steve knew bucky killed the starks from zola’s newsreel thingy in cap 2 then it’s honestly impossible that natasha didn’t figure it out the same time as steve if not sooner but she didn’t tell tony either! natasha, what’s good??**

**but if natasha dumped hydra’s files online after tws shouldn’t the whole thing be public knowledge already?**

cw **screenwriters +** russo **bros:**

****

**I assumed** steve **knew about it from that file nat gave him at the end of** tws **so I don’t think it was public knowledge**

They kinda address this in the movie. 

During Zemo’s “interrogation” scene, he says that the files from the data dump were encrypted. It took him a year to find something he could use on the Avengers. Yeah, some of what Natasha dumped was easily accessible to the public. But other things were deep, deep, deeply encrypted so that only experts with a lot of damn motivation could crack it.

And even still, Zemo can’t just get the video from the data dump. He got the  _idea_  that the file existed somewhere in the world from the data dump. The tape itself isn’t there. It’s analog, like Bucky’s Code Book. He had to find a guy to find a guy to find a guy. Only a zealot with a lot free time would/could do that.

Remember, too, that Steve didn’t learn about the Winter Soldier possibly killing the Starks from the data dump. It was insinuated by Zola. And Zola “lived” in the network of old school computers in the bunker, and when the bunker was destroyed he was destroyed. 

Also, if we’re going to accept that Tony didn’t find out about HYDRA during his encryption of SHEILD in _The Avengers_ , then we’re going to have to accept that HYDRA has better IT guys than SHIELD. Some of their shit is so inaccessible people like Natasha and Tony  _didn’t even know to look for it_ , if they even wanted to.

Some things are plot holes and handwaving by the writers. Some things are just there but not spelled out. This could be a writing flaw, but it isn’t a plothole.

Oh, and to the original poster’s point — Yeah, for sure. Natasha was standing right there during the insinuation. She knew as much as Steve. But then Tony would expect Natasha to keep secrets from him. He’d be pissed to find out, but he would be bitterly resigned.  _Steve_  is supposed to be morally superior, that’s what Tony’s been resenting about him his whole life. The fact that  _Captain America_  would be, from Tony’s perspective, selfish and cowardly enough to hide that from him is enough to make him go ballistic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

anonymous said:  
can't wait to read more of your CW thoughts!!

I have so much I want to say! So busy so I can only do snippets here and there.

But I did really enjoy it! I think for the amount of time and the number of characters and the number of set pieces the movie still does a really good job setting up the themes.

Like all of Captain America movies, thematically it’s  _about_  America. It’s all about Modern American Exceptionalism.

I heard some criticism that said that the movie is bad because it sets up a UN plot but only the American Secretary of State, etc. seemed to be in control. 

[It was posted on my dash but I lost it halfway through. Can anyone link me? It’s a Soundcloud of a couple of people talking about the movie and one of them hated it because, from what I could tell, she wanted a small indie film about Bucky reclaiming his agency with the help of his good pal Steve.] 

It’s not a plothole or bad writing that the American Secretary of State is taking over.  _It’s a thinly veiled critique of the world we live in_. When it comes to the UN, America houses that shit in our country, founded that shit, but  _we don’t sign shit._ Meanwhile, we play moral police to the world and a good portion of the rest of the world _*cough* UK/EU *cough*_ lets us because the more we spend on our military the less they have to. 

Tony is trying to do the thing he’s never done. He’s trying to submit to authority they way he could  _never_ submit to his father’s authority. Because, after all that he’s been through, he feels like  _everything is his fault_. He’s a narcissist, but he’s trying to give up his Exceptionalism and take some blame. Share the burden of policing the world. Get some consensus. 

Doesn’t that sound nice? Only, that’s not how America operates [you can put in any number of countries here, but Cap films are about American politics]. The Accords aren’t about accepting blame. They’re about politicizing tragedy. 

Another plothole I keep hearing that is not a plothole — You can damn well bet that the Accords were  _waiting_  for an incident like the one in Nigeria. Every time the Avengers popped up, Ross was crossing his fingers for casualties big enough to throw the Accords in their faces.

Steve sees that. Because Steve, he’s already given up Exceptionalism and has moved back into Individualism. In the comics, Captain America stands for American Ideals not American Politics. And for most of our history, America has been isolationist and selfish and protective and hypocritical and lucky, at times, (WWI-ish, WWII-ish) to be in line with those Ideals we usually ignore and therefore on the right side of history — just like Steve is lucky that Bucky  _isn’t_  the assassin. Whew. Dodged an existential crisis/bullet there.  

I really need to think about this more to give proper due to these angles, but the point is that Steve and Tony are both right and they are both wrong. Steve is right to believe in the people he believes in. Tony is right to realize that the Avengers are meddlers and meddlers need boundaries. The system fails both of them because systems suck.

So Steve puts down his shield, just like he put down SHIELD, and gathers his allies to work as individuals from the outside. And Tony plays the game but does what he can to gum up the works.

As modern American citizens of conscience,  _these are the options we have._ Play the game as best we can or leave the game to make our own rules. It’s a fitting way to end the Cap trilogy. From ultimate Patriotism to the rejection of American Exceptionalism. 

Oh, and, like, the ‘splosions were cool, too. _:)_

 

 

 

 

 

**anonymous said:**  
 **"Neither came out as villains, but I felt like they both learned some lessons and grew as characters." Great analysis! But I actually ended very frustrated with Steve, 'cause I didn't feel that he actually learned any lesson? His letter to Tony didn't sound like as he was recognizing his mistakes or anything (unlike Tony, who ended the movie totally aware of his mistakes). Actually, he ended** proud **of his actions "call me if you need me"... after breaking the Avengers!! It's so hypocrite? (1)**

  
  


Hey, Anon(s)! You make some good points. Steve is “dangerously arrogant.” Rhodey gets that right. But I think what Steve learns is that he doesn’t feel comfortable leading systems  _because_  he realizes that he’s myopic and even a little self-centered when it comes to the individuals he puts his faith in. 

In one sense, yes, he’s arrogant because he’s side-stepping the system because he believes in his own way so much. But he’s also not trying to dominate the system.

I read a meta that talks about how the Steve Rogers of the comics would have gone to the UN to persuade them to see it his way. The author felt that this version of Steve would have been more heroic and honest. Maybe so, but he also would have been  _even more_  arrogant. Steve is righteous here, but he’s not pushing his agenda onto 117 countries who clearly feel otherwise.

Steve doesn’t want to surrender his right to choose. He’s making an individual stand. 

I think Tony and Steve have a moment in this movie that is really necessary — they both call each other out on their flaws and they both cop to them. Steve is a hero to the people who agree with him. He’s a good person who attracts other good people (Howling Commandos and now his Avengers). But he’s also a meddler. Steve cops to that fact. 

That’s why he puts down the shield. The shield, as Natasha says, is technically property of the U.S. government. The shield, as Tony says, was created by Howard Stark — and so was Captain America. (”The only thing special about you  _came out of a bottle_.”) Steve can’t/wouldn’t give up his superserum powers, because then he couldn’t “look after the little guy.” But the shield and all the patriotism and symbolism and  _strings_  it represents he drops. 

He’s no longer Captain America, a fitting end if this is the last movie of the Captain America sequence. He doesn’t compromise to be a perfect soldier. He listens to his gut and tries to be a good man.

Maybe in one way he fails because some people are not going to agree with his definition of what a good man does. But Steve doesn’t fail to live up to his own standards, and I think Tony recognizes that when he reads the letter. 

In the end, it’s a Captain America film, so Steve gets the last word. I think his ending speech suits a man who doesn’t belong in a world that is rejecting his viewpoint (whether it is right or wrong — it’s both, really). 

Steve Rogers is a fish out of water who never fit in his own pond. He was bullied, sure, but also his value system never matched the America he grew up in. He may have the manners that seem old-fashioned, but he doesn’t have the prejudice. The Red Scare never seems to have touched him. He’s depicted as being beyond racism, beyond sexism. He specifically calls out Tony for “internment” — something that the very government he was so keen on fighting for did to Japanese-Americans. 

He’s God’s righteous man who can’t imagine life without a war, even one with Peggy Carter. Sometimes you want to punch him in his perfect teeth. That’s intentional on the part of the writers, and the characters in-universe question him (Bucky does, Sam does, Tony does, Natasha does, Rhodey does, etc.). Because they question him, that means the narrative questions him. So it doesn’t bother me that he has this flaw, as frustrating as it can be. 

In the end, Steve is exiled, and he’s got to live with the fact that he got his friends exiled, too. We’ll the see more of the consequences of that in the future, I think. 

(But not in  _Black Panther_ , because that story needs to be All About Wakanda.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

**anonymous said:**  
 **your** favourite **moments of Civil War?**

Hey, Anon! Sorry I’m late on this. Super busy week. I defended my thesis on Thursday, and I’ve been celebrating ever since! I have a few other asks in my box that I PROMISE I will get to this week. :D

Another Anon asked me for my top 10 favorite scenes/things in Civil War, so this’ll be a two-for. Obviously, spoilers like woah. 

**10\. Wanda and Vision.** I’m not a shipper in the sense that I’m gonna produce or consume fanworks about them because I just can’t get enough, but I do enjoy their moments in the film and how they’re growing together.  _Infinity Wars_  is going to be super interesting since they’re both children of an Infinity Stone. I liked their quiet moments a lot. 

**9\. The ending.**  I know people are saying this movie has no consequences for the MCU, but, um, yes it does? The Avengers aren’t together. I think  _Infinity Wars_ is going to have a getting-the-band-back-together plotline, and that’ll be fun to see.

**8\. The humor.** I read a criticism that Joss’s one-liners were too much the same kind of humor and that’s why they don’t work as well as the humor of the writing/directing team of  _Civil War_ (worth pointing out, four people instead of one). I totally buy that. I liked the humor  _a lot_ here. Sam is broad and wry. Natasha is dry as the desert. T’Challa is unintentionally funny because he’s such a (rightfully so) arrogant badass (“As both a warrior and a king…”/“I don’t care.”). Vision is bumbling around trying to be human. Peter is 15. Wanda is a sarcastic bitch, as befits a 17- to 23-year-old (“You guys know I can move things with my mind, right?”/“You were pulling your punches.”). And on and on. The humor is character-specific, so it’s better than quippy Buffy quips. 

**7. The villain.** For a MCU villain who isn’t on Netflix, Zemo was remarkably coherent and had a pretty savvy plan. I like that  _he’s an avenger_ , that all the characters who are anti-Avengers are avenging somebody. Revenge and family and  _how far we’ll go_  is the central conceit of this film, and it works. A house divided. A civil war. The metaphor has a lot of thematic ties to  _Age of Ultron_ , which was talking about parents and children. Now we’re talking about brothers and sisters. Though, I do wonder if “buildings falling on people” is a motif in Marvel movies (the Maximoffs, Crossbones, Charles Spencer, Zemo’s family, Battle of New York as mentioned in Jessica Jones, the Unnamed African Costal City Hulkbuster fight, etc.) or if Marvel writers are constrained to this kind of collateral damage because it’s visceral without being too bloody for the ratings? Not sure, but it sure is pervasive. But, you know, Zemo was the leader of a death squad. He cares about a few people and he’ll do anything to destroy the people who took them from him. It makes sense and is thematically relevant. I love the note at the end.  _Did he fail?_  I mean, Thanos is coming so yeah but the Avengers won’t be as ready as they could have been.

**6\. The brucenat hints.**  I’m a shipper. You all know that. My eyes were peeled for brucenat hints, and we got them. Another Anon asked for more detail, so I’ll talk more about my theories there. But the necklace, the thinly veiled Ross contempt, and the “You sure he’d be on our side” are all enough to make this shipper content that Marvel is keeping this plot thread alive.

**5\. The opening scene.** Action, humor, character setup, coherent sequence of events, and real, devastating consequences for the rest of the film. It’s like textbook writing/directing perfection. I immediately felt like I was in the Marvel film I wanted to be in. Everyone looks great and uses their powers well and interacts with each other so well. My daughter, my saint, my Nat in particular was  _on point_  in this scene. Trainer? Check. Badass? Check. Smart/fast/capable? Check. Her skills trusted  _completely_  by the team? Check. Too cool for goddamn bird robots? Check. <3 <3 <3 The writers here need all the props because I’ve never seen a better in media res intro to a Marvel film.

**4\. Black Panther is everything.** The Russos knocked it out of the park introducing this character. The role felt so lived-in, like I’d known this character all along. I felt his connection to his father and the respect he has for and from his bodyguards. T’Challa himself was regal and intense. He was a foil for everybody (Zemo & Tony especially) but he came out looking better than anybody (“The living aren’t done with you yet.” SWOOOOOON). It’s hard to pick a favorite scene of his, but the sequence where he talks to Natasha about his culture, puts on the ring, and then  _tears up some shit_  is just the most perfect setup ever. Never felt like exposition and displayed his level of powers without making it the only purpose of the scene. I love the way that Rhodey says, “Your Highness” with mild censure. Like, your father was spearheading the Accords but failed to mention that his son has god-like panther powers and a Vibranium suit? Obviously, T’Challa is going to believe himself to be above the law because Wakanda is isolationist and, just, like,  _better than every country on the planet at all the things_. I love, love, love the glimpse we get of Wakanda at the end. HURRY UP FEBRUARY 2018. 

**3\. Natasha is the heart of the team and I loved it.** Okay, so you know how in the trope of the five-man band “the chick” is often interchangeable with “the heart?” And you know how we always complain about female characters getting the short shrift with this part? In  _Civil War_ , Natasha plays this role and it works like gangbusters. Think about it. We have Steve and Tony and their morality pets (Bucky v. Rhodey/The Starks). We have a villain who has the very same ax to grind as most of the other anti-Avengers characters in the film. And then we have the rest of the characters either underscoring why Tony or Steve is right (Vision/Wanda) or functioning as comic relief. THEN THERE’S NATASHA.  _She’s reading the terrain_.  _She’s trying to keep her family together_. Remember AOU? She made a big personal decision. She’s not going to run from her duty as an Avenger, even though that might bring her personal happiness. She’s going to stay and fight. But Natasha  _wants_  personal happiness, so she’s made the Avengers her family. She fights for them but she also thinks about how they can function in the world. She’s a perfect mix of Steve’s goodness and Tony’s savvy, with a warmth and a worldliness all her own. SHE IS MY FAVORITE CHARACTERand I will write a big damn essay on her soon. Even though she has fewer minutes than usual and doesn’t get a where’d-she-go-tag at the end (grumble, grumble),  _Civil War_  still managed to underscore and reveal some cool things about her character.

**2. The airport fight scene.** This movie essentially exists for this set piece and maybe that’s a really shallow reason to make a movie but  _goddamn it is fun_. I don’t know why other people watch Marvel movies, but I watch for the characters and I watch  _to marvel_. This scene is so damn cool! And creative! Everyone plays to their strengths and the humor is pitch-perfect in terms of character. Visually, the airport backdrop is drab but that means everyone’s costumes just pop all the more. The airport is a big jungle gym where these over-powered, grown up kids can hash out their differences. And ANT-MAN’S FACE WHEN HE’S BIG!? I was grinning so hard. Just pure fun, that also had  _weight._ I love how it starts fairly light and then gets more and more intense as people, honestly, get their feelings hurt by their friends. I feel bad for people who sat through that scene bitter because of “child soldiers” or angry anyone would try and hurt their precious Bucky. Did you see his  _face_  when Black Panther clawed him? Was Hawkeye not  _amazing_  when he said, “Made you look?” Black Widow zapping Ant-Man? Winter Soldier and Falcon and Spider-Man??? Guys. Guys.  _It was so. much. fun._

**1\. The moral ambiguity.** I went in hoping no one would be the straight good guy and no would be the straight bad guy, and this movie did not disappoint. Steve was everything wrong and everything right about America, and so was Tony. The story is symbolic, but the plot is personal and that’s why is so damn messy as politics always are. Steve puts his faith in individuals and not institutions, and he only turns out to be right — he went in  _with no idea_  Bucky wasn’t guilty. But he has his allies and he’ll defend them to the death, right or wrong. Is that heroic? Sure. Is it Perfect Hero Material? Nope, nope, nope. And Tony got shit on in this film, rightfully so,  _but he’s attempting to make amends_. To Pepper, to his dead parents, to Charles Spencer, to the world. Steve is self-righteous and Tony is a fuck-up, but  _they both try to do the right thing_. I thought that was really compelling. Neither came out as villains, but I felt like they both learned some lessons and grew as characters. We can nitpick about particular choices and there’s some frustrating stuff in there, but at the end of the day I wanted ambiguity and I wanted growth and got both. 


	79. Wanda Maximoff in Civil War

anonymous said:  
I really really want to know what you think about Wanda. I have the feeling that they don't go deep enough in the character and it almost forgive her mistakes. Like, Steve's anger with Tony when he learns of her situation (WTF? he doesn't see that Tony is actually doing it?). Idk, did everyone forget that she unleashed Hulk in AoU? She has a recent record of very aware mistakes (she wasn't brainwashed to justify). I know that she's an Avenger to repaid that, but still... idk

Wanda. Wanda, Wanda, Wanda. I’m with you, Anon. She’s a tough one.

1\. Thank God she exists. It’s great to have another woman on the team. Elizabeth Olsen does a really nice job with her, I’m a fan.

2\. She is the most powerful Avenger, hands down. Love that. Her powers are great and she wields them well, but it’s awesome to see her grow and make mistakes and learn.

3\. I really got that she feels bad about what happens in Nigeria. They play that really nicely.

4\. I wanted a  _little_  reference to Pietro. Just a nod. “Pietro loved to add too much salt to the recipe” when Vision made her dinner. A picture in her bedroom. Didn’t catch anything like that.

5\. You’re totally right, Anon. They  _do_   _not_  address her culpability in Unnamed Costal African City  _at all_. She was  _a bad guy —_  “I want the big one.” She reveled in it. You could maybe argue that no one died, or else Ross would have talked about it with the others (Or maybe, politically, he’s trying to distance himself from the Hulk since, you know, he helped make the damn thing). Regardless, people were hurt. Buildings fell.  _Bruce_  was hurt. 

7\. It’s not like I want her raked across the coals. But it would be nice to have her reflect on the fact that she  _joined HYDRA_  to become a  _violent activist_. Like, that’s why she did it. She has a capacity for harm. So erasing that is a disservice to the complexity of her character. I  _like_  her vicious streak — “You were pulling your punches.” It’s fascinating. 

8\. But it does seem odd when it’s matched up with “Viz” telling the audience how wonderful she is and that that people need not fear her and Steve treating her like a child. Her character is more than their perceptions, and I think that could be an excellent avenue to explore in Phase 4. From what I’ve read about the comics, Wanda Maximoff Has Done Some Shit.

9\. I think Vision/Wanda is really great, but I also think that it doubles as a writer’s shortcut so that we forgive her faster. Talking about “internment” and seeing her in a straightjacket does the same thing. It’s the MCU dipping into the Discrimination Against Mutants = The Holocaust thing that the X-Men does, which always made me go :/ because, you know, mutants are actually dangerous accidentally and on purpose. As metaphors go, it’s no  _Maus_. And, if they really are changing Wanda’s Jewish heritage, dipping into that well is extra distasteful. 

10\. But, like I said, I do like her character! But I would like it more if the writers acknowledge her penchant for viciousness and zealousness and hypocrisy and had her work through those things. You know, that thing male anti-heroes get all the time. Whatchamacallit. A character arc. 

Thanks for the ask, Anon!


	80. Luke Cage: Season 1 Thoughts

Finished Luke Cage! Loooooved it! Got some spoilery overall and shippery thoughts below.

 **overall  
** \+ Mike Colter is a national treasure  
\+ More black women — multidimensional black women at that — than the entire cinematic superhero oeuvre of  _any_  studio to date  
\+ THE MUSIC  
\+ Pops (*sniff*)  
\+ Alfre Woodard was spectacular, as was her rise to villainy  
\+ Let’s appreciate that Woodard is 63 (what??? how?) and Theo Rossi aka Shades is 41 (again: what??) and they killed it with chemistry. Mariah/Shades power couple. Here for it.  
\+ MISTY KNIGHT — they did a phenomenal job introducing her and I can’t wait to see her in the future  
\- I understand the dialogue is meant to harken back to the comics and the writers did hang a bunch of lampshades to let us know they were being corny on purpose but  _ugh sometimes_ I was taken right out of the show by it (i.e., ”He’s in prison.” *dramatic pause* “But he’s not a prisoner.”) It’s fine if these kinds of reversals happen every now and again. But it was cliche, cliche, subverted cliche, cliche, subverted cliche, call back…you get the picture.   
\- Diamondback could have had a better entrance for all the buildup. I would have liked to see him earlier running his empire to contrast the full-crazy we do get (which is glorious once you get past the  _what??_ )  
\+ The snake-looking power suit was  _amazing,_ though, loved that bit, and the Power Man costume was perf. No complaints with cheesiness aesthetically.

**shippery**

  * I wasn’t spoiled one bit, so I assumed Misty was going to be the romantic lead for the show. They set her up perfectly for it, and she and Luke have great chemistry. So I was surprised with how quickly they dropped that. The part where Luke stays to help her is great, but they’d already switched Misty to shipper-on-deck for Luke/Claire. I assume she’s going to be the love interest for Iron Fist, so maybe that’s why they didn’t explore Luke/Misty too deeply.
  * But. Misty kept flashing back to her night with Luke like it was doing something to her psychologically. Really? She slept with a dude who turned out to be part of an investigation. She doesn’t need to beat herself up about it. I understand the double-standard, but I didn’t like how the writers made it seem like  _she_  bought into the double-standard. Dropped the ball there.
  * Luke is, on one hand, shown to be a trustworthy man (Candace bringing him up with her) but the writers also kind of make him a dick. The woman in the beginning gets no love, Jessica Jones is a “rebound chick,” he negged Misty to get with her (’You are BEAUTIFUL’ :) ‘BUT OLD’ :( ‘BUT  _I_ AM NOT LIKE OTHER MEN’ :/), and was like Reva? Who’s Reva? waaaay fast.
  * So, Luke’s big thing is trust and honesty. Super understandable for a man who was falsely imprisoned. So it makes sense after Jessica’s lies he can’t deal with Misty’s. It also makes sense that Reva would lose a lot of her luster. But JESUS: “I loved the  _idea_  of Reva.” So immediately this woman goes from being a positive idea to a negative idea with Luke never once stopping to wonder who  _was_  Reva under all those layers? Not a fan of the lack of nuance there. Colter could have played it way more conflicted if the writers had let him.
  * I read a post where someone was complaining that Reva was villanized to get Luke back to Jessica. Sure, it could help that ship because it complicates the notion of who was innocent/guilty in that. But Luke’s negative feelings toward Jessica stem from the lie more than the act (he gets mind control now that it happened to him). What the Reva reveal does is give Luke a new beacon of hope — Claire. 
  * Claire never lies to Luke. Claire is amazing and smart and beautiful and helpful and moral. Claire is fascinated by Luke and really digs heroes. Their ship makes a lot of sense. If they are end game, my Luke/Jessica heart will break but at least Luke/Claire is starting out in a positive place. There’s time for the narrative to prove that Claire is really a person for Luke and  _not_  a representative of hope like Reva.
  * If they’re not end game — whether they do or don’t get coffee — then that’s way more complicated. Claire is put upon in the Netflix shows. She is constantly giving of herself for little in return (except by we the audience who love her). Matt does  _not_  treat her well in season one. I haven’t seen season two (Matt kinda bores me) but considering Claire got the hell out of Hell’s Kitchen it’s clear that he’s been testing her there, too. Claire deserves better than to be a bump in the road to the happiness of other ships. If Jessica/Luke is going to be a thing again, the writers better do right by Claire. The one consolation is that she knows that Luke has a complicated history with Jessica, Reva, and that he “got coffee” with Misty, so, whatever happens, Claire is going in with her eyes open. That’s important to me.
  * Jessica/Luke is my ship.  _Luke Cage_  does not ship Jessica/Luke. That’s just a fact. Jessica does not get any love — “rebound chick” “your girlfriend” [radio silence, never mentioned again]. Her integrity is undermined by the villain (people still don’t buy the mind control bit) with no rebuttal. She isn’t mentioned as a hero the way Daredevil is, even though she sets up that hotline at the end of  _Jessica Jones_. Trish, her best friend, supports Luke, which is excellent. But that’s the only positivity Jessica Jones gets and it’s not even her. 
  * Is  _Luke Cage_  obliged to give Jessica positivity? Not at all. 
  * Does that mean Jessica x Luke is dead? Not necessarily. But does bruise my shipper heart. 




	81. What would you change about the MCU?

[magicaldestiny](http://magicaldestiny.tumblr.com/) said:  
For the meme you just reblogged! :D What would you change about the MCU?

Yay! If I could change 5 Things about the MCU, I would change:

  * 5000x more continuity. I know they do a really good job, so when they drop the ball it frustrates me. Like in CA:CW. Can we have  _one mention_ of Pietro (even a damn picture in Wanda’s room)? Or one mention of the fact that GENERAL ROSS is now responsible for containing superheroes after he  _unleashed_  a monster on Harlem and, you know, helped create the Hulk? (And can we  _please_ have a Betty mention? Even an oblique one???). I would play up/tie off the drama that’s been established.


  * Along the same lines, don’t you dare give up on the TV shows, Marvel. INTEGRATE THEM. I don’t need a cast of thousands, but the TV shows (Netflix especially) are sometimes too cute with their tie-ins. I would be more realistic about how non-Avengers people would respond to the Avengers.


  * MORE WOMEN, specifically MORE WOMEN OF COLOR. Luke Cage was a triumph, but the rest of the MCU is sorely lacking. Specifically — Janelle Monae is  _acting_  now people. PUT THAT GODDESS IN EVERYTHING.


  * AGENT CARTER WOULD BE BACK ON MY TELEVISION SCREEN. ………….. _BUT_  we quickly tie-off the 40s and the call to establish SHIELD and jump to the 60s where SHIELD is going strong. Peggy is now mentoring a promising agent —Janelle Monae in more of the period costuming she  _put to death_  in Hidden Figures. ;)



And OF COURSE…

  * Bruce/Natasha would have been sprinkled into earlier films/been more explicit in TA so people wouldn’t have left their damn minds so hard when it came around in AoU. If it would have had a bigger fan base early on then  _maybe_  we wouldn’t have to deal with  _the fandom nonsense_  that is still going on years later.



I’m sending this one back at ya, just wait…

> **_send me a tv show/book/fandom and i’ll say the top 5 things i’d change about it_ **


	82. Natasha Romanoff + STILL????

Natasha Romanoff + STILL?????

_Coupla things._

**#1. Natasha Romanoff’s story in AoU IS NOT CENTERED AROUND BRUCE BANNER.**

Bruce Banner is a foil to Natasha Romanoff’s struggle to balance her personal and professional life (y’know, the way Tony and Steve are foils?) The movie, thematically, is about  _family_.  _Home. Parenthood._   _Work-life balance._ The boys deal with these themes, too. Bruce is the object that allows her to think about  _how she wants to spend her goddamn life_. And, ultimately, [she chooses to do her duty, but it’s so much more satisfying character-wise](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117382790675/natasha-reduced-to-a-love-interest) now that we know it [costs her something](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117873592490/spoilery-review). [Hero’s journey, people](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/118074561445/natasha-romantic-arc-heroic-journey). [AoU explored her pain and you can’t even see it.](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/116740244900/natasha-romanoff-pain)

**#2. Your problem is not the storyline. Your problem is Bruce.**

The object of this exploration is a character you don’t personally connect with therefore you don’t like it (the YOU here not meaning OP as much as ALL pseudo-Romanoff stans who denigrate her character because they don’t like her canon ship). If this same storyline had happened with Clint or Steve or whoever you like better, *poof* all this antifeminist evidence you see would disappear. How do I know? Because NO ONE bitches about the Natasha rolling up flirting with Sam and Steve or the Steve/Natasha kiss in CA:TWS — character moments that  _served no other purpose in the story except reminding us that Natasha is hot_  ([I break down all the beats in CA:TWS that could be read as antifeminist here not because I think CA:TWS is antifeminist but because I think y’all cherry pick](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/119026848295/natasha-in-aou-v-natasha-in-tws#tumblr_notes)). You don’t like brucenat. Get over it.

**#3. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM with the infertility storyline.**

Okay. Infertility makes you uncomfortable. It’s a touchy subject. Does it belong in a superhero movie? Why the fuck not?  _X-Men_  opens in a concentration camp. HYDRA are Nazis. If fictionalizing  _the atrocities of the Holocaust_ isn’t taboo then “women’s issues” are fair game.  _Natasha undergoing sterilization in the Red Room is a process of dehumanization that helped, mentally and physically, make her killing machine because it helped her believe she had no place in this world._ By dismissing that part of her backstory as “problematic” you’re [missing out on a fascinating topic to think about](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117701240905/what-exactly-do-you-think-would-have-happened-to). 

**#4. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO SHE DID NOT CALL HERSELF A MONSTER BECAUSE SHE CAN’T HAVE KIDS.**

Honestly. What is wrong with people? Maybe on first hearing it, sure, you could misinterpret in a split-second. But, after that, you are willfully believing something absolutely ridiculous because you hate Joss Whedon. There is no other explanation. If you need a line-by-line reading that isn’t insane, [I break it down here](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/post/117850381310/natasha-romanoff-bruce-banner-that-scene).

 **JUST BECAUSE YOU CANNOT SEE NATASHA’S AGENCY DOES NOT MEAN SHE DOES NOT HAVE ANY.** I’m sorry nuance is hard. Must suck not to be able to see it.


	83. brucenat + ComicCon 2017 footage

_**anonymous  asked:** _

_**hello! so the ComicCon has been full of interesting things: a glimpse of Nat's new blonde hair in that poster and so many little scenes of Bruce in Ragnarok's trailer... As a fellow shipper of Bruce and Natasha, what are your thoughts about them?** _

Hey, Anon! Gosh, it’s been forever since I’ve done any brucenat meta. The other day, I redid my tags and such, so I put all my meta on ao3.  _Yeesh I wrote a lot of meta in 2015_. Haha! Happy to get some new stuff talk about.

The ComicCon stuff was  _amazing_. Ragnarok is gonna be so much fun! And I watched the cam version of the IW trailer, which would have done me no good if I hadn’t already read the descriptions. It’s super fascinating where Bruce and Natasha are going to be come IW. 

In AoU, Bruce and Natasha were part of the Avengers family and the comfort they found there, even if it wasn’t a perfect fit for either of them, gave them enough of a sense of ease to start slowly exploring what they could mean to each other. Then, of course, they are Tested By the Plot. Neither believing themselves worthy of their hero-families, briefly, they think about running away together to forge something only they can. But, when it comes down to it, Natasha chooses to be hero. She does the hard thing, betraying Bruce into becoming the Hulk. At the end of the movie, a very Bruce-like Hulk leaves alone, still not convinced he can be trusted enough for family.

In CW, Natasha loses her family. It’s tragic. She absolutely tries to do the right thing for all sides and ends up losing everything for it. She goes on the run, shedding her identity as an Avenger, may be even as the Black Widow. Maybe even as Natasha Romanoff. I have so many questions! Is she still in the game, working from the shadows? Or has she given it all up for a semblance of a normal life? I think the blonde hair, if it’s real (as opposed to a less permanent wig), indicates that whatever she’s doing she’s in This Is My Life Now mode. And the most tragic thing is that she’s cut off, on her own, when every choice she has made since we’ve known her as an Avenger has been designed to get closer to people. What must she be going through to be tossed out in the cold the way she is? Gah. 

And then there’s Bruce. Bruce, by contrast, chose exile. But, for him, it looks like exile is the best thing that could have happened. The trailer makes it seem like he’s just come out of a two-year span as the Hulk. He seems wide-eyed and out of his element, but not morose. Not depressed. He seems…at peace. And the Hulk is articulate! He’s got a personality (and it’s Drax’s, heh)! Bruce seems like a man changed for the better, ready to ally with Thor and save the frickin’ galaxy (okay, okay, I’ll stop with the Guardians comparison, heh). I’m sure (I hope) there will be more depth to his character than that, but overall Bruce is likely coming to IW on a good note.

So where does that leave brucenat? I don’t know! It’s tough to speculate. The only clue we have is Scarlett Johansson’s interview where she talks about Natasha’s “ongoing” thing with Banner and how upset she was at what sounds like the ephemeral nature of their relationship. So, good news, brucenat is going to be explored! And, better news, it sounds like it’s going to be with some nuance. I’m down for it. But I wonder how these two are going to relate to each other? I’d love for Bruce to be in a better, more open place. But it sounds like the dynamic is still similar — Natasha pursues, Bruce shies away. Natasha is going to be in a very vulnerable place if she, indeed, has been on her own for a couple years. Is she harder? Is she shielding herself by getting lost in a new identity? Is she cracking at the edges for want of family (I hope to God at least she’s been by the Barton farm!)? It’s going to be so interesting to see. 

And, as a shipper, knowng that some way, somehow it’s going to be addressed, I’m very cool with sitting back and seeing what happens. I will not hype myself up for more than one scene and some background glances, though. That cast list is  _insane_. 

Thanks for the ask, Anon!

\----------

_**anonymous   asked:** _

_**In the Ragnorok trailer Bruce refers to Hulk as "I", seems proud of his abilities, and overall appears to be having a grand old time.** _

[blueincandescence](http://blueincandescence.tumblr.com/)  answered:

GREAT CATCH, ANON.  **“I” is so vital!**  God, the disassociation that boy put himself through. And now we get an “I”??? I wonder if he’ll go back and forth in this movie? Or if he well and truly has accepted that he is one with the Hulk and the Hulk is one with him. Can’t wait it find out! :D


	84. brucenat + speculation on what's not "solid" about them in IW

_**[certaindreamchopshop](https://certaindreamchopshop.tumblr.com/) asked:** _

_**So I've got this personal theory based on the Ragnarok trailer that the reason Bruce seems in such a good place is that being Hulk for so long has regressed him mentally/emotionally. What's your take on it, and do you think it'll carry into Infinity War (since Mark says Ragnarok starts an arc that goes through the next to Avengers films, and Scarlett mentions "something that should be solid but isn't" about Bruce)?** _

This is so interesting! I can see where that comes from — there’s a certain innocent vibe, a childlike wonder to Bruce’s character in the trailer. In the clips we’ve seen, he isn’t the wry cynic that we’re used to. It could be that he’s so far out of this element that “stunned awe” is all he’s got left. It could be that finding some peace with Hulk has made him drop some of his emotional armor.

Or, as you suggest, it could mean that something of the old Bruce has been lost in translation. 

Fascinating concept! Full disclosure: I’m a fan of the wry cynic, so I’m hoping your theory isn’t true so we can get some notes of that in Ragnarok. But it’s not a bad theory at all and plausible! So let’s imagine that’s the case.

When you say “regressed” — what does emotional regression look like for Bruce Banner? 

My theory has always been that the core of the Hulk is Bruce, the abused child with layers of teenage petulant brilliance built in. We know that Hulk has  _pro_ gressed in the past 2-2.5 years. He’s articulate, he thinks highly of himself, and he’s a gladiator who may or may not be having a good time. Maybe it’s a case of the id run rampant or a little boy who gets to live out his fantasies as the biggest and the toughest.

_Re_ gressed Bruce Banner, that’s a trickier thing to imagine. He had a nice character progression from TIH to Avengers to Ultron, but if you regressed that he’d just be more closed off, more afraid of himself. That’s clearly not what we’re seeing. If you’re suggesting he’s regressed to a younger version of himself, like I said, I can see the childlike wonder. But it’s hard to imagine Bruce having a happy-go-lucky or even well-adjusted childhood to regress back to.

So, I don’t know. Feel free to send another ask to explain what you meant about regression!

But let’s take your point about what this any kind of significant character shift could mean for Bruce and Natasha going forward. On the one hand, my gut says treat any Bruce Banner who doesn’t hate himself as a  _much stronger_  romantic candidate. On the other hand, if he’s so different that he doesn’t have that wry cynicism anymore — is he still the same man Natasha adores?

This is the part of your theory I find most fascinating, [@certaindreamchopshop](https://tmblr.co/mn2lxTwfO1ddls1QTM-_diw). How will Natasha react to a Bruce Banner who isn’t  _her_  Bruce Banner? We may not have gotten to see it on screen, but they clearly got to a place where they knew each other incredibly well. Otherwise, the lullaby would never have worked or even been attempted. 

Here’s the angst version of this scenario: Bruce returns. He  _does_  seem well-adjusted. He expresses joy, he has a looser bearing. And Natasha, she’s so happy for him. She is. But that  _connection_  they had as broken people who suffered childhood trauma, as scarily accomplished loners, as ex-”monsters” seeking redemption — the foundation of their understanding for each other, their need to help each other become the best versions of themselves — it’s just…not something Bruce can express anymore. And Natasha — who, let’s not forget, has lost her Avengers family and is maybe struggling to hold onto her own identity — is left feeling lonelier than ever.

………Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to jump off the nearest cliff.  _Jesus_.

 

\----------

_**ok while that**_ bruce _ **banner theory is beautiful**_ i _ **won't let you hurt a) my son, Bruce. b) my**_ daugther _ **, Nat. c) their BEAUTIFUL FRIGGIN RELATIONSHIP OKAY**_

Hahaha no worries, anon, I have no power here. I am such a sucker for angst though — with a happy ending, of course! <3

 

\----------

_**[certaindreamchopshop](https://certaindreamchopshop.tumblr.com/) asked:** _

_**Yeah, I guess there are a couple of ways to interpret "regression". I guess the best way to articulate what I meant is that, rather than going back to the kind of child Bruce WAS, Ragnarok would see him be the kind of child Bruce WOULD have been minus all the baggage and in these alien surroundings. Phrased that way it sounds like even more of a stretch, but that's the best way I can put it right now.** _

_**Also, two things of note; it’s entirely possible I’m talking out of my neck and what’s happening with Bruce is far simpler- he’s not really regressed so much as he is dazed from being gone two years, and all the clips we’ve seen of him are all within a few minutes of each other so he’s not all back yet. Second, I find it interesting you say Hulk thinks highly of**_ himself, _ **since his “raging fire” line could be seen as self-aggrandizement, but also a**_ putdown _ **to himself over how dangerous he is.**_

Nothing wrong with talking out of your neck (adorable phrase)! I do it all the time.

The idea of Bruce going back to the child he  _could have been_  is really sweet. I think an element of that kind of healing could be a thing. When do we see Bruce most at ease? In the lab when he’s working on something that consumes his curiosity and in Calcutta when he’s got a cause. An alien environment would bring out the curiosity and the helper in him without all of the “what if I destroy a city???” emotional baggage because alien worlds are built of stronger stuff.

We’ll see, though!

I get your point about self-aggrandizement and self-deprecation in equal measure — now that you mention it, isn’t that  _so Banner?_  Like, to a fault. 

Thanks for the ask! 

\----------

_**[tallulalusa](http://tallulalusa.tumblr.com/) asked:** _

_**I really don't think that a more well-adjusted Bruce would be a bad thing for his and Nat's relationship. I think she would be truly happy for him. It might even make things easier for them, for when they need to connect emotionally or work through any troubles. I think they had more in common than just their childhood traumas.** _

Absolutely! I definitely feel this way, too. If Bruce can get to a comfortable place with himself, they can grow together. 

In my view, it was that common ground — that recognition of each other in Calcutta, their ability to see through each other’s masks — that first intrigued them. Then it was their mutual respect and trajectory toward redemption. Then it was their absolute adorkable-ness. 

A healthy version of growing from that common ground is that, when they’re at their lowest points, they’ll be able to look at each other and empathize with whatever negative emotions are in the driver’s seat at the moment. And in good moments, they’ll be able to really feel and appreciate how far they’ve come, separately and together. 

In my angsty scenario, I was imagining if post-Planet Hulk lite Bruce no longer has access to the complexity of the Bruce Banner emotional landscape as Natasha came to adore it during their time together. Who is he without that complexity? Happy-go-lucky Bruce is nice and all, but Natasha is a still waters kind of gal. I can’t imagine her romantically attached to anyone without depth of personality, character, and life experience. 

But, of course, that was just an angsty scenario. Not what I hope or think will play out.


	85. brucenat + sweet

anonymous asked:

hey i've had a bad day and you're my favorite blogger,, could you talk about wondertrev or brutasha or anything cute and shippy and positive?? sorry to bug you with this

 

Oh my gosh, that’s so sweet, Anon! You brightened my day, so I hope I can brighten yours! Let’s do a sweetest scene meta. I’ll try to get to both couples tonight.

**brucenat**

**The lullaby scene**  is the quintessential demonstration of how sweet this ship can be. 

The way Natasha approaches the Other Guy speaks volumes in terms of character growth. Natasha feared the Hulk for a lot of reasons (gods and monsters and nothing she was ever trained for). Bruce feared the Hulk for more reasons (he’s the  _other_ , the evil inside of him worth killing himself to exorcise). And yet they’ve grown the seed planted in the first movie — Natasha’s “We could use a little worse” and Bruce’s adorable smirk of agreement — into this beautiful ritual built on mutual trust and understanding. 

Natasha’s approach is so subtle. “Hey, Big Guy,” she starts, showing us her usual unfazed self. Then the Big Guy turns with that snarl, and we see a fleeting shadow of her fear and also how she’s mastered it. She centers herself and trusts the method that she and Bruce had clearly worked hard on perfecting. She demonstrates the exact care and consideration required. She is calm and trusting but also  _alert_. Bruce would never want her to drop her guard (and, the way she was trained, she never could). 

The acting is phenomenal here as Natasha’s eyes flicker with concern but then brighten when the Hulk responds to her. It’s understated, but the playfulness that she demonstrates when she gets the Hulk to mirror her hand and the awe we see when she’s able to touch him  _just makes my heart squeeze._ You can almost hear her think, “I can do this because you trust me.” Wrapped up in that sentiment is her trust of Bruce and, what’s more, her trust in  _herself_. It’s there in that little smile of a job well done she allows herself.

I can’t talk enough about that smile, but let’s also point out the fact that she  _averts her eyes_. The moment Bruce starts to change, Natasha looks away. That’s respect. The transformation is a private, vulnerable thing for Bruce. She doesn’t gawk. She gives him space.

To my last shippy breath, I will never get over the lullaby. AoU has its flaws, but the lullaby is  _perfect_. It’s metaphorical and poignant and suits their characters so well. The Hulk has been characterized as childlike in the MCU and that interpretation jibes with Bruce’s comics backstory as an abuse survivor. Natasha, an agent of manipulation, here is being tasked to use her force of will not for violence but for  _gentleness_. And this scene is so gentle. The music is gentle. The acting is gentle.

The difference her gentleness makes to Bruce as he’s transforming is absolutely heartbreaking. It’s a  _painful_ process physically — all that muscle and bone twisting and tightening — and mentally — the shock of going from passenger to pilot. But Bruce’s expression flickers to pain for just a  _breath_  before he’s merely dazed. He’s still a prisoner of his misfortune but he’s grown to trust the Other Guy enough to let himself be granted the mercy of the lullaby.

We don’t see it, but the evidence is there that at some point Natasha gives Bruce the blanket she holds. Does she walk over and place it over him while he comes to grips? Or does she hang it on a tree limb where he can see it and let him journey to the quinjet on his own terms? Or does she split the difference and wait for him? 

Just imagine. Bruce, hunched over with his hands covering himself, taking the blanket that she holds out to him. Small, serenely sad smiles. Their hands brush. The intimacy of what they just accomplished together is in their touch, their eyes as they meet each other’s glance. They can’t look long. Each new layer of meaning this ritual uncovers is one less to shield them from the nameless ache they’ve come to share…

WELP. Doesn’t take much to reawaken my brucenat feels, does it???

In conclusion, this scene is absolutely brilliant and heart-wrenching and  _pure_. May  _Infinity War_  give us poor, beleagured shippers something half as sweet to hold onto. <3


	86. brucenat + ragnarok

Yay! I just saw Thor: Ragnarok and, no surprise, I loved it! Definitely a good time. Top faves: 

3\. “Immigrant Song” should play whenever Thor does anything from now on.   
2\. Valkyrie’s swagger is everything to me.   
1\. brucenat references for days! 

**Hey Big Guy**

Y’all, this one caught me right in the feels. Valkyrie calls him, “Big Guy”! Like, you guys! I am 100000000% sure that Hulk  _asked_ her to call him Big Guy. Just as I am 100000000% sure Hulk saw her — so strong, so whatever-Bruce-fanboys-about-when-he’s-following-her-down-the-hallway — and was immediately put in mind of that another strong, no bullshit warrior woman he trusts. Valkyrie and Natasha are very different, no doubt, but this movie makes it obvious that Bruce Banner is attracted to and in awe of strong women (I mean, we’ve known that since Betty, but it’s nice to have it reinforced).  **  
**

So my question with this buddy-buddy relationship is how did it start? Obviously, Valkyrie found Hulk and brought him to The Grandmaster (he’s “her” champion). How did she get him there? I’m guessing, even if she could, if she’d used the shock collar on him then he wouldn’t have ever trusted her, ‘cause we all know Hulk and trust is a biggie. I’m guessing that she, very inebriated and an all-around badass, didn’t even get scared for a moment. She found his ship, walked right up to him, and pitched him the deal. He would be _loved_  on this planet. He would be a winner. Maybe, mistrustful, he pushes. She pushes back. He likes that. And Hulk likes the sound of what she’s selling. He likes the sound of it a whole lot. And Valkyrie likes the big angry kid who can and will fight the world. She #getsit.

**Go Be a Hero**

I like the dramatic stakes this movie sets up for Bruce. He’s terrified that if he goes Hulk one more time he’ll never be himself again. He’s also clearly dismayed that Thor really wants him for what he can do as the Hulk, not for what he can contribute as Banner. That’s messed up, as he says, and he has every right to be put out about it. And yet when they’re on the Rainbow Bridge and nothing Valkyrie is doing seems to be working — what does Bruce choose? To go be a hero. To use the Hulk to save lives. Because that’s what a hero does, and that’s what Bruce does even at the highest possible cost. “Go be a hero” is a directive he’s reluctantly but clearly embraced. While he might have mixed feelings about being pushed down a well, by the time he reunites with Natasha Bruce should be mostly there when it comes to not holding a grudge. The greater good, etc., etc.

**Sun’s Gettin’ Real Low**

Thor trying the lullaby to no effect is  _hysterical._ It’s also so incredibly shippy. First, Thor, the least observant Avenger, understands this is the only thing that Banner responds to and believes with all his heart that it will work because likely he’s seen it work so many times before. Second,  _it doesn’t work for him_. The words aren’t the trigger. The relationship is the trigger. So, no, haters, it couldn’t be just anyone doing the lullaby. It had to be and has to be Nat.

**I Need You**

Oh, man. The fact that it’s Natasha’s video message that triggers Bruce’s return after  _two years_  is the most goddamn beautiful shippy thing I have ever been blessed to see. Taika/the writers did not have to go there and they totally went there so hard. Bruce has been riding in the trunk for two years. But Natasha says  _I Need You_  and it’s over. Hulk is already visibly shaken that Thor might leave him behind because Hulk’s primary objective —  _Smash!_  — has been replaced with a longing for friends he can count on. He may be a winner, he may have adoring fans, but he clearly misses having friends. Most of all, he misses Natasha. All the CGI awards to whoever rendered Hulk’s agonized longing at seeing Natasha. The transformation is so visceral. If Bruce has been kicking at the back of the trunk these past two years, you can tell what’s been keeping him motivated to do so — the thought of Natasha needing him. Oof. Yeah. That’s so good.

**Planet Hulk (But They Didn’t Go _There_ )**

This is more of an honorable mention, but I think it’s so important. From what I’ve read about the  _Planet Hulk_  storyline, Hulk was living it  _up_  while playing gladiator. Hulk-sized ladies for days — and even a wife. But this movie, which references orgies and Hulk dick, most emphatically  _does not go there_. It respects the groundwork that’s been laid for Hulk in the MCU — Hulk is an oversized kid. He plays with a red ball. I was honestly so concerned about this. I was crossing my fingers and  _praying_  that there wouldn’t be a Jabba the Hut image — you know, Hulk sitting on some kind of throne with half-naked women a third his size lounge around him? Yuck. I like my Hulk as a manifestation of an abused child who wants to feel powerful.  _Not_ as the mid-life crisis wet dream of some asshole who wishes he could fight and fuck like King Kong. Yuck times infinity. So, yay, movie! No wife and no grossness to sour the character/ship.

So, yeah, those are my big thoughts about the brucenat representation in Thor! How’d you guys feel about it???


	87. brucenat + Avengers 4

ANONYMOUS  
SENT A MESSAGE

What do you think that writers and the Russo brothers wanted meant by "And here we have a taste of a reunion" and "Things are just moving too fast for love" during Bruce and Natasha reunion in Infinity War in audio commentary from Infinity War blu-ray?

Hi, Anon! You know, I haven’t heard the commentary, but I did read another post about it. It seems to me that the Russos are acknowledging brucenat in just the way the scene does. It’s respectful, it’s wistful, and it’s brief.

I imagine the brucenat haters had to have made some sort of impression. But whereas  _Civil War_  gave only the teensy tinest of hints,  _Ragnorak_ made it clear that the brucenat angle isn’t being dropped. So much of that film was a farce (a delightful one!), but Bruce returning to himself based on the sound of Natasha’s voice was  _not_  played for laughs. In having that moment in the film—and acknowledging it on the DVD commenatary—the Russos are keeping that narrative train moving an no amount of hate is gonna stop it.

However brief, the two comments are interesting.

> **“And here we have a taste of a reunion.”**

A “taste” is the right word. Delicious but brief. I will submit that often when people use “taste” they mean the full meal is to come. Of course, I could be wrong. But I imagine a) They filmed a longer reunion for  _Infinity War_ that ultimately got cut (see the smile next to the Hulkbuster arm, which we don’t get as a deleted scene) and/or b) The real reunion will happen in  _Avengers 4._  I think both are true.

> **“Things are just moving too fast for love"**

In a sense, this is exactly true. At this point in the movie, we’re barreling toward the climax. We don’t have time for  _another_ love story on top of the two we’ve already gotten (Vision/Wanda and Quill/Gamora).

See, within a film, Marvel  _never_  moves too fast for love. Every Marvel movie has at least a taste (eh?) of a love story. (People like to pretend  _Ragnorak_  is peak cinema because it doesn’t have a romantic subplot, but it definitely has  _moments_. Romantic tension between Thor and Valkyrie was clearly written in.) For Marvel movies, romantic subplots are an easy shorthand for character development. Superheroics vs. Personal Life is a staple of the genre—period.

It’s a safe bet that  _Avengers 4_  will also include  _multiple_  love stories as subplots and character beats. But guess what? The two love stories we had are dust. (They’ll be reunited at the end, I’m hoping, and that’ll be a brief taste of a resolution for them.)

**So, who is left to carry the love story for _Avengers 4_?**

  * ****Okoye, Rhodey, Nebula, Rocket, Groot, Shuri, Wong: Nope.**  **No love interests.


  * **Thor:**   **Unlikely.**  Neither Valkyrie nor Jane is likely to factor in, plus he got his time to shine in  _Infinity War_


  * **Steve: Unlikely.** Possible flashback to Peggy aside? The loss of Bucky will be his focus, naturally, and Marvel baits rather than deliver on that score.


  * **Clint & Scott: Sorta.** Both their families have (probably?) been dusted, giving them an awful lot to fight for but less onscreen to work with because their counterparts won’t be present.


  * **Tony:**   **Definitely.** Pepper Potts! We got a taste of their wedding prep in  _Infinity War_  to set us up for either major heartbreak or Tony for real for real stepping down to start a family. Like the rest of the internet, I’m hopeful that Pepper gets to suit up as Rescue and join the fray.


  * **Bruce & Natasha: Odds are in our favor. ** _Infinity War_  supported two fully rounded romantic subplots, so  _Avengers 4_ could, too. I expect an exploration at the very least. 
    * Bruce needs to deal with his Hulk issues, and Natasha has been a part of that throughline since  _Avengers_. 
    * Natasha is meant to have a “harder edge” after being a Secret Avenger and seeing her friends get dusted. In  _Age of Ultron_ , she sacrificed her personal wants (to run away with Bruce) for the mission.  _Avengers 4_  could be her:
      * a) coming to terms with that decision either by self-sacrifice or taking on even more of a leadership role, 
      * b) leaning into that decision in a negative way that needs to be addressed by her character arc 
      * c) opening back up—and a romance, even just the possibility of one, would be a neat shorthand for that



I went waaaaay beyond the question, Anon, but these are my thoughts! We’ll see if anything pops up in a trailer…


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